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ORAL HISTORY
Bauman, Rich
Captain Avery Museum
Date of Interview: January 13, 2001
2001.018.003
#2001.018.003
Interview of Rich Bauman
Interviewed by Ginger Corson
Oral History Chairperson: Mavis Daly
Video by George Daly
Transcribed by: Donna Williams, December 23, 2003
Edited by:
Lynn DePont, February 8, 2004
Interviewer Ginger Corson: We're here today with Rich Bauman, down in Cedarhurst,
one of our suburbs of Shady Side, and we’d like to talk to him about the development of
Cedarhurst, which was done by his father. We're in his home here on Chesapeake Avenue
right out on the [Chesapeake] Bay, and it’s got quite a history in and of itself, but I'd like to
introduce you to Rich.
Rich Bauman: How ya doin'. I'm Rich Bauman. I don't go by formalities, like 'Mr. Bauman',
so just call me 'Rich'. [ Laughing] I've been coming down here all my life. I'm not very old
right now [ laughing] . I was about two when I started coming down here. My Dad was from
Grand Island, Nebraska, and so was my mother, they moved here and they got married here
in [ Washington] D.C. in about 1921. And he went into real estate. Well, he got into real
estate because when he was out west he had a newspaper route, and he saw a house, and
saw that it was beat up. So, he put a little bit of money down on a house, and it rented, and
he said this is a good deal. He was making money and he wasn't doing anything. He
probably got the house for little or nothing. So then he went into real estate when he got
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here. He was born in 1898, so he was about 23 when he got married. He was top real
estate; he and his partner were Herzman -- Bauman & Herzman – were the real estate
office, and they were selling, helping develop Chesapeake Beach. They were the
salesmen down there. There was five men who got together and formed the Cedarhurst
Development Company. And they got some of the rough roads in here, and there's no way
to get in. But they come up and asked my Dad and his partner and they advised them of
what they should do. Here's my Dad, about 24 years old, advising these fellas that bought
this property. This property was originally 'Brick House Farm,’ that was the original part of
Cedarhurst.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK.
Rich Bauman: I don't know exactly how many acres it had, but they, my Dad and
Mr. Herzman came up here and said "Well.” They were out at the main road, and I can
imagine what that looked like, [laughing], and this was in 1924, and he climbed a tree down
there and says "the first thing you gotta do is put roads in here.” [Laughing] They had
them in here, I believe, and in Cedarhurst. To get in here there was man named Crandall
[Pause] No, no, no. [pause] ... it was a fella right at the beginning of Cedarhurst where the
Richard's Corner Grill is.
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Interviewer Ginger Corson: Forman?
Rich Bauman: No, no, not Forman. That was Jim's Country Kitchen, before that it was
Ada's Country Kitchen. [Right.] Ada had really good food. Jim had, I guess, good beer!
[Laughing]. I wouldn't eat anything in there. I went back into the kitchen one time, and that
scared me out of Cedarhurst. [Laughing.] Right now they have good meals and things.
That's where the access road was where you came in that way. Some of the blacks had
homes there, not homes - houses. I guess they were homes to them, but some of them,
the wind had been blowing and they were leaning. I'd like to have some pictures of those
because they were novelties; they’d have people stand up in there.... We'd come down the
road and they'd have their family gatherings down there, and they'd all be on the front porch
and in the yard, and they still have those things down here…fish frys…they get the whole
family there and friends of the family, big doin’s.
So we'd come in Cedarhurst Road, and it was gravel and Cedarhurst and all these roads in
here were private, it was owned by Cedarhurst Development Company. So then, it wasn't
going too well, so they had a salesman for them move up here, moved Daddy out of there
and he came up here. And this was first here to develop…got together with about five
businessmen and a lady from Shady Side.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Do you know who the lady was?
Rich Bauman: No, ‘cause... it could have been the Nowell’s. I think Mrs. Nowell had
something to do with it. It's on the deed. The deed is over at the Salem Avery House. The
name’s on it and everything. So, my Dad was getting a commission, but they weren't
paying because nobody had any money. So finally in 1926-27, he was negotiating with
them because he was going to take it over; they were going to give it up. My Dad took it
over in 1928 and it was transferred from the Cedarhurst Realty Company to the Waterfront
Development Company. So, ok, this is my Dad's baby. He come down here, and they had
some lots behind (what'd I call the hotel - it's the Brick House now and that whole block
there, and they had 25 foot lots, and they would sometimes give those away as promotional
things to help raise money to help with the Cedarhurst Community Center. So, all of those
back there were 25 foot lots, they'd see this plat and you'd see all these little tiny things,
that's what it was. There were dozens of these promotional things and people would have
to buy two or three of them to make a home site.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: I would hope so! [Laughing].
Rich Bauman: To tell the truth, all of the rest of the lots in here are 50 x 100. It was
meant to be that the person buys one lot and builds his home on it, he buys the lot next
door for his yard; that would give him some area. But now, as it turned out, everybody was
building on every lot and every square inch they can, [sure] that the County [Anne Arundel]
would allow. At one time, you could build on just about anything. The lot right next door to
this house is a lot and a half, and there's a person that bought the lot, it was
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the Beards. She was the wife of a gambler from DC, and she said "Oh, this lot is on an
angle; I didn't get my full 50 x 100". So they gave her half of the lot next door you see,
that’s the easterly half of plot 2 and plot 7, that's what it was. Just draw a line. They didn't
have too much surveying, and it's still on the plat book.
So, let's see, where was I? Oh, the roads down here. All this used to be at the hotel or at
the Brick House farm, and I had just been a little kid, I don't know how old I was. I went in
there and everything was dingy, and looked like lanterns, they had these oil lamps and stuff
like that, and it was dingy and sort of scary in that back room.
But my Dad liked to make kites, he'd make box kites; but when he was a kid, he never got
no string, so he made these sort of octagon-shaped kites, or something. And he'd go out
and fly it over the Bay, and it had so much string that it would go out of sight. Well, it went
out of sight because it had so much string and the weight of the string broke, and it went
flying [laughing], and got so tiny. He said, "I never had so much string in my whole life"
[Laughing]. So he, I can remember the kite sitting in the back window of that hotel room,
and it didn't have that big room on the back. That was the fella that bought that was named
Mr. Kuhn, and I don't know, I think the price of it was probably $3,500, that whole half block
there. He fixed it up, he re-did it, he put a porch on it, a low porch like the old-time porch,
rocking chairs, and he put a big room on the back and that way it was a bar. He looked like
one of the Katzenjammer kids, a short guy, you know, and he was always wiping the bar off
[laughing], and he had a Tiffany lamp over the bar, and here I'm not, I'm a guy, but I notice
these things.
So he'd go up there and my grandmother, she loved to dance. She'd get up there and do
the Paul Jones, and everything. I had a friend that I've known all my life and he'd come
down, and he'd sit in the corner. His name is Jack Neidermayr, and he'd sit in the corner,
and my grandmother would come up to us and say, she'd just give us this sad look, she
said "The loneliest flower of them all is the flower of the wall." [Laughing]. So, we didn't get
the joke, we didn't know about all these people dancing around. He was my constant
buddy then. Whenever he could get away he would come down here and stay all week,
and put him to work on his house. So he only had girls in his family.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: So, was he from here or...
Rich Bauman: No, he lives about two blocks away from us in Chevy Chase. I've known
him from day one just about; but as we grew up, he grew up with me down here a lot, and,
of course, I was down here with my Dad all the time, and my older brother was too old to
come down. He might have been about six. And my younger brother, he was still a baby,
so I was always with my Dad. I saw so many people took four and a half hours,
sometimes, to get down here, cause people would stop along the way, trying to scrape up
some money. And E. Bennett Darnall, he had all the money. You'd go to him and get
loans and things like that, and I think he owned a little bit of everybody's property at one
time down here in all Southern Maryland.
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Interviewer Ginger Corson: Darnall?
Rich Bauman: Yeah.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: I think I've seen that name around here for hundreds of
years.
Rich Bauman: Yeah, yeah. He owned the deeds. And I remember going to see him,
looked like an old country gentleman, sitting there on the porch, rocking back and forth. He
had a big house, and I'd sit out there. I wouldn't be on the porch so much with him, I'd be
throwing little rocks at the tree, just wasting time. That's how I learned to be patient. I
couldn't drive. You don't blow the horn, you blow it once, that's enough. [That’s right.] And
I knew that. So, let's see, I got off on a tangent there.
But that's where he got the money. But then coming down here, the main roads, all the
roads in Cedarhurst, if somebody comes down interested in Cedarhurst and see the
photograph album my Dad put together. Over the years, it has Bay View Avenue [which]
was just ruts. One house you can see way up the road. The rest of the houses, there
weren't many down here. They were shells built up on cinder blocks, like concrete blocks,
up off the ground. And, that's what all of them were. And some of them were built, as I
mentioned earlier, I'm not able to show them, some of the places were built right on the
property line in back, like that was where they were going to put the garage, that was like a
bath house. On Cedar Avenue here, some of those houses are still there that they made
bigger. So, they don't have any back yard. They have big front yards but no back yards.
Soon as those houses were started on the property line, and they'd start building and
adding on to them in the front, so that it looks funny for a house way back from there.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: [Laughing] You can't do that now, can you?
Rich Bauman: You can't do a lot of things anymore! They used to throw their trash back
in the woods, and man, they said, man, you can't, getting too big, and so they took a
bulldozer and bulldozed it under the ground. And now you'll find some old relics back
there in some of those places. He was buying property around Cedarhurst, like buffers.
He bought this place where we are now, as a buffer. [Cat meows] This belonged to
Dennis, part of the Dennis property, and it adjoins the other Dennis property; sort of like a
family got together and they, I mean, they gave him three acres of it over here.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: I saw the sign out here that said 'Dennis Point.’ I've never
seen that sign before, so what is over there?
Rich Bauman: There's a house. Dr. Goodman bought that, and it took him ten years
to get through all the red tape and all those things. But I'm getting a little bit ahead. I
got a big house going up and I'm still back on muddy roads.
�6
Interviewer Ginger Corson: [Laughing] OK.
Rich Bauman: So the people they would all get together in the front of their house, and
they'd put oil down on the roads. Can you imagine doing that now? You'd be hung by the
thumbs! Just to keep the dust down. People used to come down here, and the dust would
go up and to keep the dust down, so the village people had gasoline stations, they'd get
five-gallon drums of oil and put it up and down the road. Put enough of it and it would look
like black top. And the kids used to walk there in their bare feet, and they'd come in and
leave their black footprints on the linoleum, and they had pine floors. They had pine floors,
most of them. Some of them, in the summertime, they had grass rugs and in the winter
time they'd roll up the grass rugs, otherwise the fleas would get in there, and if they had
animals, and you'd walk in there, the fleas would jump.
We used to have a house back in, well we had many houses, they weren't homes, they
were houses that changed for the ones going to the beach or something. Most all of them
had either outhouses or chemical toilets and most all of them was chemical toilets when I
was coming down here and inside they had a bathroom inside with a chemical toilet. It was
where the future septic system was put in. Talking about the Dennis,’ there was this fella
named John Dennis. You'd always see him in these hip boots, but they were rolled down
below his knee. And I always called him 'Father Time' cause he had a sign. He was
always walking up and down the road. Real old! He was ancient when I saw him, and I
didn't think he'd ever pass away, but I didn't ever want him to pass away. [Laughing]. And I
knew him for a long time, and my Dad gave him a watch, a Westclox dollar watch, and he
came and I'd say, "What time is it, John?" and he looked at it and showed me, and like he
knew, but he didn't know how to tell time. He just was one of these guys who worked
forever. You'd just see him walking up and down the road. He'd do day work and anything
he could do to make a dollar, or something like that, but they didn't make dollars; you'd
have to work half a day to make a dollar.
There was this black family up at the beginning of Cedarhurst Road. My Dad used to stop
there and talk to the fella there, and he'd give the kids a penny, one of them he'd give a
nickel, he was the oldest guy, he was a boy, and they nicknamed him Walter “Bauman”
Crowner - Crowner was his name. The Crowners used to own that property and they
nicknamed the boy Walter “Bauman” Crowner. He'd get the nickel. [Laughing]. There
were kids all over the place, but they were just as friendly as they could be. We always
called them colored people; and when they started calling them 'black,’ I couldn't
understand it, but that's the way it is. Everybody was so friendly down here, and everybody
got along together; this thing about prejudice was unheard of down here. Everybody was
just country. [Sure.] We were city folks. I've been coming down all my life, but I'm still an
outsider. [Laughing]. But you gotta be born down here, you can have little kids down here,
the natives I'm not, but that doesn't bother me. I'm happy with just being here, to be here.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: We have been known to adopt people. [Laughing].
�7
Rich Bauman: Yeah. Well, that has been done. I just feel part of it anyhow. My Dad,
this was his life, really. He just loved this place down here. A lot of people don't realize it,
what he put in down here, the time and the effort. And during the Depression, my mother
had to go to work so he could keep this place. [Sure.] I don't know how she went through
it, but the General Accounting Office, don't know what they did down there, trying to keep
track of the accounting, I guess.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: In DC?
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Rich Bauman: In DC, yeah. It was the old Pension Building where her office was. She
was just going to work a little while but she worked the rest of her life at the General
Accounting Office. Apparently, she liked it. My Dad was able to keep this place because
of her going to work.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: That's great.
Rich Bauman: And they had the Depression that everybody was talking about and didn't
have anything to eat. We didn't worry about having anything to eat because we'd eat
hamburgers, you'd eat spaghetti out of a can, Chef Boyardee or whatever it may have
been. My parents may have been hungry, but we didn't feel hungry, we had milk and
peanut butter because we never thought of the hunger. My parents may have discussed it,
“what are we going to eat next,” especially when you're in real estate and nobody's buying.
So as I was coming along, I think I was about maybe four, and there used to be a big cove
here on Cedarhurst, still is, but then it was sort of, well, they called it a cove, but there was
no seawall. When they put the seawall in, it was one of the first in the area for that type of
seawall. It was reinforced with dead bolts or whatever they called it to hold the thing up.
People came from all around just to look at it because it was a new project. It lasted for
years and years and years until the worms finally got through the creosote and everything,
and then they started reinforcing it with the riprap out there, and that was a little bit at a time
because we didn't have any access to … out here. Everything was volunteer.
They had oyster roasts, and oyster roasts -- they used to get more people to oyster roasts
in 1930. They had Model A's and Model T's coming down here and they were all over the
place. They had more people come to those things way back then when it'd take you two
to three hours to get from Washington because sometimes the roads were flooded, and
then they have now when we have oyster roasts down here now, it's not many people.
Traffic only takes an hour to get from Washington up by Silver Spring down here. It takes
less now just to get on the Beltway, but they don't know how to read, it says 65, they go
over 80 and the Beltway is 55 and they go 80! They had these oyster roasts down by the
Community Center, and I'd come through the back way because we were back in Pine
Avenue, that's when we did have a permanent place we could sleep and I stayed there for
over the weekend. I used to come down Pine Avenue and come through the other side of
the harbor, but the harbor is just one side where they had boats, and that was just a
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swamp. And I'd put boards down and look through there and see all those people over
there. I ended up coming in the back way on a boat. I may have been about eight years
old then. They would have these colored guys up at the oyster roasts…with the oysters on
top of the roasters, standing up there…they were having the best time of their lives. I've
got some pictures of those big crowds, it was amazing how many people went to those
things.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: By Community Center, are you talking about where the
Kiwanis Club is?
Rich Bauman: No, this is in Cedarhurst, right on the water. Everybody in Cedarhurst
owns the waterfront, it belongs to the Citizens of Cedarhurst, but the harbor belongs to the
Cedarhurst Boat Company and its in the name of five trustees which delegates the
authority to the Citizens’ Association, so it's a different entity than the Community Center.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: But you have a harbor?
Rich Bauman: We have a harbor.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Way back then?
Rich Bauman: Yeah. They blasted through, they dug it and then they blasted through to
the Bay where it comes in. Because there was some fresh water lakes in the back, three
fresh water lakes between Cedarhurst and Snug Harbor. And all these little places were
built about the same time in the ‘20's. And Snug Harbor didn't come along until recently
and was fairly well developed with big houses over there.
Getting back to my younger brother, or my older brother, chased me with a crab. This is
going back to when I started on this, but I'll go back. He scared me with this crab, it was
about three, three and a half inches long with its legs hanging out, it was dead. He chased
me with this thing. I wouldn't come near the water, but he scared me half to death.
[Laughing]
Interviewer Ginger Corson: [Laughing]. Don't you love brothers and sisters?
Rich Bauman: I didn't go to the water. I didn't know how to swim, but I learned how to
swim in a creek at Layhill, Maryland. But I've always been around the water. I always
walked on the seawall; of course, if you fell off, it would only be about six inches of water,
[laughing], that was at high tide. At low tide, it would be way out. And they had put jetties
out, made out of cinder blocks and concrete blocks. They would go out and they would
collect the sand, nice sand beach, with stairs going down off the seawall down to the sand.
And they did have a pier down there that we have pictures of, the evolution of the pier. It
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used to be this little rickety old thing. Then it got a little bigger and bigger and bigger. So
now it's got a 40' square platform out there and once in a while it gets blown down by a
hurricane, but they've really got one now; it's really built well.
But I had more fun down here, just being on the water. My old time friend, we'd take a
rowboat and row down to Franklin Point. And this boat was heavy, had oars about 8 feet
long or 9 feet long, and here's these two little guys trying to row this thing. Man, that's as
far as we got. I think it was about a half a mile away but, by the time we got to doing all
that, the tide would go out, and there'd be crabs and things like that. And, we'd get some of
the minnows or these little tiny fish and the crab got him on the finger, and he threw that
thing way up in the air. They'll come at you, those baby crabs. It really bit him.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: [Laughing]. The babies are the worst.
Rich Bauman: We still kid him about it to this day. We had a good time down here. As
time went by, I think I got to be about 10 years old then we'd come down here and collect
“nanny” money... [Slight pause as camera person asks Mr. Bauman to turn and face the
camera.] Oh, okay! I'm going to turn this way. We would collect Coke bottles, then we'd
get two cents deposit on those, and you really made a bonanza when you'd find a big one,
a quart. And we'd take it over, take the back roads and went by the Trott house and the
Trott property, and Cedarhurst did extend over to Snug Harbor Road, they owned the
property, it wasn't subdivided.
And we'd go down Snug Harbor Road to the center of lovely, downtown Shady Side. That's
where they had the Rural Home, and I had no idea what it was. But I know they had tennis
courts, and these guys out with their white sneakers on, I guess they were tennis shoes
then. They didn't know of anything else like boating shoes; they were tennis shoes. And
they were playing tennis out there in their white shorts, and I said, "Look at all those rich
people over there." [Laughing]. By golly, some of them came in on the Emma Giles; I
didn't see the Emma Giles, but that's how a lot of them got there. I used to walk over there
and Miss Mary's was catty-corner across from that sharp turn there where the telephone
pole looks like it's in the middle of the road. That's where Miss Mary's was. So, we went in
there, and that's where the Post Office was, too. You could buy your postcards and put
your penny stamps on it and send it to the people in the big city about what a good time
you were having. I think the Postal Service was pretty good then, too, a couple days, pretty
good for a penny. I think Miss Ethel was Postmaster at the time, but I didn't know who she
was, not until she was 100. [Laughing]. I knew who she was before then but still.
[Laughing] Miss Hines looked like she was in prison, behind bars with bars going up and
down. I would get post cards and get our Coke, if we had enough money for a Coke, and
we'd do this probably about three days. Collect, well the big weekends were the big time
for people to leave their Coke bottles here. We helped recycle.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: There you go. Now did you ever go to the movie theatre that
was down there?
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Rich Bauman: No, no. I didn't go there. They had a Ford dealership, they had a movie
house. I never went there, not until later on when I was 16. If somebody had a car that
was 16, we'd drive up to Annapolis and go to the movies up there. But Cedarhurst was the
main thing. We'd be out on the water. I'd bring fellas down later on when I was about 16,
17. My Dad and I had a boat, it was a Chesapeake Bay upright, 27 foot boat, had an
engine probably, I don't know how many horsepower, but it wasn't much. It would chug
along, but if you'd get a storm on the Bay, it would never break up. It was built for the Bay.
We went down to North Beach one time, we were big shots going to North Beach. That's a
good place to stay away from in those days [Laughing]. So on the way back, we went past
Cedarhurst, so we went back down. We didn't know where we were, everything looks the
same cause there weren't any street lights, a few little lights in the houses around. But we
were off of Franklin Point up in that cove out there, and my friend and I, this 'Jack' fella's
always been a buddy, maybe we had a girlfriend with us, too, we looked at each other and
says, "Should we go to that light or the other light?". The light was just off in the distance
and he says, "Let's go to that one over there." Then we didn't know where we were going,
or where these lights were, but we get off the boat, and they said, "Oh, what are you gonna
do?" We were probably three quarters of a mile out, so we walked to shore. It was up to
our knees, and we come through the reeds down on Franklin Point, didn't know where we
were, and I can remember it to this day. Guy was reading the Sunday funny papers and
we come out of the water and walked up to his house, and he's on the front porch. And it
was quiet, and I said "where are we?" and he says "This is Franklin Point", and we said
"thank you" and turned around and walked back out into the water. [Laughing]. To this
day, if he's still alive he's probably scratching his head and wondering what happened!
[Laughing]
So I knew where we were when he said 'Franklin Point' and we came back to Cedarhurst
point. Those were the fun days, they're still fun days to get out on the water, just being by
the water, cause I was always down here. Every place I go, to some different location, if
you go to Connecticut, I have to go to Mystic, and I always end up by the water. And at
Cedarhurst then it started growing. The County took over the roads after a long time. This
was debatable cause this is where they had control over who could come in. The County
took over the roads, and nothing big happened, but when they put sewers in, that's when
developers started.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Do you remember what year that was?
Rich Bauman: No. No, I don't. I was trying to look it up earlier. It was probably in the
‘60's, and then they got the sewers in…in different sections at a time. So some of the front
foot benefits were a lot cheaper, or less expensive, nothing's cheap. It's less expensive
than other parts like the new ones, they're pretty expensive. There's some roads in here
that don't have a sewer now because the County wouldn't put the road in with no houses
�11
on it, it wouldn't be worth their while. So now when the people that bought the lots, they
improved the road in front of their house, to the County specs and everything.
It's just amazing how this place grew. You used to go up to Shady Side Road and there
wouldn't be a car for an hour coming by. Everybody’d be out on their boat in the water; and
if it was during the week, people just worked around here. Some of them would commute
to Hyattsville or close in or Upper Marlboro or something. But to go to Washington, naw,
they wouldn't do that. So, during the week, you wouldn't see a car all day long. You could
walk right down the middle of the road.
Then, as time progressed, more cars and more cars and more cars. Then when the
sewers came in here, they started putting houses on every lot, and I think it was four
development companies, with Schwartz, I believe. He went, I believe, to the land records, I
don't know the details on it; he bought up all these 50' lots and some of them are right close
together, I mean some of the lots were together so he could put houses on the lots
sideways. So you'd walk out your front door and you're greeting somebody putting their
trash out. [Laughing] I said, 'this is terrible…that wasn't meant to be.’ So then they
started Ford Development Company. Ford would buy these lots or something from the
heirs of people that had bought them back in the ‘20's, and the people they were paying
these taxes, when they started getting front foot benefits well, this is worth while holding
on to, so they'd sell it for the best prices they could get. It wasn't much. So, then they
started putting these houses on sideways and it started getting over crowded.
As I said earlier, we had a place back on Pine Avenue. It was a simulated log cabin. Oh, it
was great. It was only about six of them in here. The lumber company, used to be Thomas
Lumber Company, now it's Smiths, they relayed it, I believe, somewhere from Thomas, I
expect bought it, from Thomas. So, they…I'm at a loss. What do they call it, a senior
moments or something?
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Well, how many homes would you say were in
Cedarhurst when you were coming up?
Rich Bauman: Well, they were just cottages.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK, cottages?
Rich Bauman: Oh, boy. When I first started down here, this end up here had maybe
40 at the most.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. How many do you think are here now?
Rich Bauman: Probably 300.
�12
Interviewer Ginger Corson: And what's the price difference? When your Dad was
around, what was a cottage going for?
Rich Bauman: Well, I had a picture of an ad in the paper that it was a house and a lot; it
was a shell. It had electrical wiring,and it had a well drilled, and the house and the lot sold
for $1,849, easy terms [Laughing].
Interviewer Ginger Corson: That was quite a bargain, I'm sure.
Rich Bauman: Well, then people, that was in 1938 that's when the ad was in the
Washington Daily News.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: And what would you get for a home here now?
Rich Bauman: Cheap ones, you know, somebody forced to sell, they'd probably bring
basic, still basic from way back then, probably $80,000. The house built like the log cabin
they went in, that sold for $100,000 How in the world could that sell for $100,000? It was
just two bedrooms, a kitchen, a living room, but they did have a fireplace. The guy that we
got it from, he was a bricklayer and had a nice brick fireplace in the back he had a big
barbecue. That was one of the few ones that had a brick fireplace. You know, a lot of
those houses, just to, uh, as promotional things, not promotional, they were built in the
middle of the block instead of building the choice lots on the corner, you had to have some
incentive to have the houses built close by you. He just loved this place. Everything he did
was for Cedarhurst. A lot of people that live here don't realize that.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: I can vouch for that.
Rich Bauman: A lot of people didn't know him. When he died, it was right in this house
right on the kitchen floor, he just fell off the kitchen chair and died. It wasn't a long illness in
the hospital or something. He was getting sicker all the time, but he was right here, it was
his baby that he loved so much.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: How old was your Dad when he passed away?
Rich Bauman: Ah, let's see [pause, and voice in background said '76] ‘76, I got
prompting here [laughing] Ok, that's right. He died in '74. I would come down and make
sure they were alright. I come down every week, rain or shine, it didn't make any
difference, I wanted to see if they were all right. See if anything needed to be done around
here or do. My older brother passed away quite a few years ago; my younger brother is still
alive. He passed away in 1986. Yeah, '86.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Where were you living at the time?
�13
Rich Bauman: I was living in Silver Spring. I was married, and I was the only one of the
boys that got married. My older brother had girlfriends, but he was 42 when he passed
away.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: And you met your wife in Silver Spring?
Rich Bauman: No, I met her through a friend of mine. He was dating her and...
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Aha! [Laughing]
Rich Bauman: I'd been married before, and I wasn't interested in getting married. I had
my first girlfriend, and she told me that she got married six weeks beforehand so, I said,
“oh, ok!” And the next girlfriend, she just happened along just when the other one went so
they could blow in pretty good. And I went to North Carolina, took a friend there to my
mother's down there and come back; and she was going to school in DC and she said
maybe this summer I won't be able to see you because we bought a place down on the
beach; and I said “where,” and she said "Felicity Cove". And I said "that's pretty close by.”
So then I was taking her down here, and then I went to North Carolina for two weeks, and I
came back and she started dating a fella down here. So that was that. So I wasn't
interested in girls. I finally married my first wife. I saw her at some church party or
something like that, and so that didn't last too long. It only lasted about four years; I dated
her for quite a few years. That was the best-spent four years. It was to my benefit because
I met Edie down here through this fella who was a friend of mine, and he was dating Edie
but they…something happened between them so I wasn't interested, didn't want to make
anybody mad. I didn't want to steal any body's girlfriend. I said, "Man! How did that guy
get such a good looking girl?" [Laughing, he turns around and points to a picture.] There's
a picture of her.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: It's a beautiful picture, yeah!
Rich Bauman: We just hit it off ‘cause she was married before for a short time. So she
wasn't looking for anything especially, neither was I; so it was a good blend. And right now
we've been married 43 years come this June.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Ok, and you've got children?
Rich Bauman: Yes. We have one boy in Florida. He lives in Rockbridge, Florida, right
near Cape Canaveral, and he's got four children, three boys and a girl; and the girl got
married when she was 24, I believe, and she's about to have her first child in February, so
that makes us great-grandparents.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Great!
�14
Rich Bauman: My daughter, we have a daughter. She lives in Damascus, and she's got
three girls and one boy, so it's just the opposite, and we have 'four and four.’ And she was
living at our house in Silver Spring. She married this fella [slight pause for musical clock in
the background and laughing]. [That’s the music in the background.] We're far enough
away that we don't have to be babysitting all the time. [Someone speaks in the
background.] Ok, we're getting closer to them anyway if need be. We can go down to
Florida and visit; when we go we stay a couple weeks. Right now, we have to switch; every
other year we go to Florida, and every other year we go at Thanksgiving; so it switches
between our daughter and our son, and it pretty much evens things out so we don't show
preference to either one. Both of them are equal, our kids.
I don't know if I've sort of veered away from Cedarhurst, but this house we're in now my
Dad bought it from the Dennis people. In fact, Mr. Dennis came up to my Dad and says
"Do you want to buy this place over here…it's three acres." He says "Yeah, I guess I will.”
I don't know what he paid for it, but he said he can't get along with his brothers or his
cousins or something like that other Dennis home in part of that area over there. They own
another 35 acres next door to us.
So my Dad bought it,and he rented it, no plumbing, may have had one line of electricity, but
there was a pump outside, and this outhouse farther out in the backyard, had three rooms
upstairs. There was bedrooms, there was no bathroom up there. So now there's two
bedrooms…three bedrooms: a small bedroom and two fair-sized bedrooms. The other
room was made into a bathroom, it's a fair bathroom, could only have been used as a
nursery or some sewing room. I didn't consider it a bedroom, it didn't have a closet -- they
used that for linens and stuff. But, the house is not that large, it looks large. Downstairs,
we have this living room, and we have sort of like an entrance foyer here, and then with a
whole wall coming through here. And then it has a dining room. There was no heat in
here. They used a fireplace and probably had a pot-belly stove or something, and a good
size kitchen.
So then as time went on, this person, I think her name was Mrs. Richardson, I think they
were paying about $45 a month rent, and they kept getting behind, and they sent my Dad
these little letters, she just lost a leg and couldn't pay the rent [ cleared throat] . As time went
on,…I think she had about four or five grandmothers that she lost, and six or seven breasts,
you know, just some excuse but she lost [ laughing] . They finally did move out. My mother
didn't like to come back to the log cabin, that was back in the woods; she didn't like that, so
she wouldn't come down. She'd stay at the house in DC. So then my Dad says "Well, I
have that place up on the front now, it's available, I can move that back on a couple lots
behind us." We go back probably 500 feet back here; and he had a couple lots back there,
he was going to move it back there and said he'd build her a nice brick rambler up there, "I
�don't want that. I want the house that's there." So that's why the house is still here. The
15
original house had a low porch on the front and this house has evolved around that core.
My dad liked pillars. For some reason, he liked pillars on the front of the house, so he put
three of them up and I said, "Why didn't you put four?" [Laughing] But of
�16
course, that would make it look too, you'd be going through doorways, it wasn't that wide of a
house. Then he put a side porch on. This was going to be a slab out there just to put a
table with an umbrella on it, or something like that. He says, "No, that would bring it up to
the level of the living room, and let's just have a deck." It wouldn't be a deck, they used to
call them porches, now they're decks. So, I went out there, my Dad had grass beds and
everything in the thing to hold the dirt and the cement together so it wouldn't crack.
[Laughing] So, I don't know what else was in there, metal like reinforcing rods, and then
he poured concrete. So then, we were going to have a screened porch, Dad said "No, we'll
go up a little ways,” so then it's a screened porch, and now it's got louvered windows on the
front, knotty pine, it's about 20 x 15, I think it is, the porch. It's a nice room out there. It
doesn't have any heat. That's why it's storage in the wintertime. Right now I can hardly get
out there. We put a ping pong table out there. [Laughing] Somebody gave us a sailfish
they caught and that's on one wall; that's a ten foot sailfish.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Oh my!
Rich Bauman: This used to be over a person's bar, he used to live in Spring Valley and
he gave us this fish. He was going to cut it down and throw it out, and I said, "Man!", and I
brought that thing down in my car, the nose is sticking out and the tail hanging out the back
window! [Laughing]. My Dad, they lived here all summer long and they would go back in
November and live in the cold weather up there in Chevy Chase, DC. Of course, it was a
lot warmer, they had radiators up there. They had forced hot air and it's very inefficient.
The furnace is always going, and I'd tell my wife to turn the TV up -- I couldn't hear it ‘cause
of the furnace [laughing]. And after that porch was put on there, they put on another wing
on the north side of the house; it's got an office and a large bedroom, plenty of closet
space, a utility room on the back and a big bath. So it doesn't look like the house coming
in at an angle, to sort of even the house up; so that now it's probably about close to 80 feet
long, before it was probably about 28 to 30 feet wide, from the original core.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: And is this your dock out here with the little cabana?
Rich Bauman: Yeah. I put that out probably eight years ago, something like that. The
County put in for, and I applied for the revetment out there. Revetment for each stone is
placed separately and it has to touch in three places. The guy in the County come down
and inspected, and that's a revetment. It has to be flat across the top and a certain angle
down to the water, and they had a template they had to go by, and it had big, big boulder
rocks, toes, they call them down there at the base. And I said, "Well, why don't you just put
the front of the wetlands out there?" They said "we can't do that, we can't do that. We'll
have to dig out behind it." And I said, "Well, you're not going to have any wetlands out
there if you do that." [Laughing]. So, I used to mow in front of it then, but the Bay just took
it back. So they don't have any wetlands. I wanted it to come off of the Cedarhurst rocks
�17
and make sort of a cove and have the wetlands in there. I wouldn't fill it in or anything…I
like the marsh and everything, ‘cause I had to put that out there to keep it away from my
front yard; I didn't want it to go down.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Absolutely.
Rich Bauman: It was depressing to put that in there because then they had a great big
pile of dirt and they didn't know what to do with it. And I said "Well, can't you just put it in a
pile out back there?" And they said, "No, no. We have to haul it away. And I said, "Well,
why don't you just level it out to this revetment." If they build it higher than the land and
they're gonna make a steep grade in behind it. And I said, "Well, why not just put it behind
there and this way it will even it up?" "Oh, we could do that. It's been a disturbed area…so
they put a few grand in it right out in my front yard – perfect!
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Good, good.
Rich Bauman: They put a hole through the revetment so that water could drain out
there, and they put it out there and the revetment... [Tape stops, then no audio from
tape as it continues to roll and as Mr. Bauman has another person hold the yellowed
newspaper ad of the Cedarhurst community along with a small object that appears to be
a 'Monopoly-sized' house. Tape goes 'Blue'.] Then...
TAPE CONTINUES:
Rich Bauman: I could go on about Cedarhurst.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: How about some colorful characters in Cedarhurst?
Rich Bauman: Well, we used to have a guy named Mr. Bell and they thought he was born
here, but he came in a lot later. And he was a 'self-doctor,' and he made his own splints for
his leg, and he smiled a lot, and he had false teeth that were sort of loose in there. He and
Mr. Tippett, they used to go down and fish off the pier and my daughter came down, and
she was just a little thing and she used to sit along with these two old guys there, and she'd
catch more fish than they would. And they knew all about the fishing. And to see these
two old guys, they looked like something out of Norman Rockwell, and a little girl, I guess
she was [Rich asks someone in the background "How old was she?"], about six or seven
years old. And these two old timers there and she was right in the middle of them. She'd
bait her line and everything, and she'd pull up a fish; they weren’t big fish, but she'd be right
along side of them. Typical Americana! [Slight pause as someone walks in front of camera
and says "You wouldn't get her to do that now." Laughing]
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Do you have anybody that you know bought a home way
back when and if the family still has it, that lives here in Cedarhurst?
�18
Rich Bauman: Uh, Felters, they were one of the original ones. His father, Walter Felter’s
father, passed away and Walter passed away, and Mrs. Felter remarried and they sold their
house. They were the ones I knew were early, early residents. The Lohmanns, Jim
Lohmann, he's been down here a long time, and he used to live across from one of the first
houses we stayed on in Bay View Avenue. And he re-did that. And a guy named Tommy
Miller used to be the electrician - well, he's still the electrician –
but he doesn't live here anymore, and he had a nice brick home right by the harbor. So
Lohmanns bought that and sold their other one; his wife passed away, and he's got a
couple of sons, the nicest guys you ever want to meet, I mean just regular gentlemen.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: The Millers?
Rich Bauman: No, the Lohmann boys. I think Miller had daughters, I think, I'm not sure.
I didn't know them too well. I know he was an electrician. I was the real estate man's son,
and I didn't get into the social life down here ‘cause you don't want to give your father a bad
image. You get with some of the characters down here, some of the natives down here is
something else. [Laughing.] So, I always kept my nose clean. [Cat meows in
background!] So, we did do stuff on the water and didn't get involved with any of the
people down here, not until 1972 when the hurricanes or strong winds blew away the pier.
I went down there and said, "Do you need any help?" and [they said] "Yeah, go and get a
hammer and help us put a roof on here." So I did and I've been involved ever since.
In Cedarhurst, I was on their Board of Directors for 17 years. [Cat jumps into Mr. Bauman's
lap, and he said: "This is the local lion; they have miniatures down here."] Then I said,
“well, 17 years is enough; let some of these young people take care of it.” I resigned, and
they have a good Board of Directors; they've done wonders for the place and they have a
tax district now so they don't have to really work as hard as we did. We had spaghetti
dinners, and everybody volunteered and everybody pitched in. Just like a lot of places, you
furnish all this stuff and then buy it back. So, that's the way things used to be, but now they
have a tax district. They always had a tax district for the seawall and that was 40¢ a 100.
[Pauses to talk to cat!] Then they said, "Well, that's going to be tough to get, somebody to
get that extra money." And I said, "Yeah, but if you have 40¢ tax district, and we had most
of the revetment put in,” I said "Now if you take 20¢ towards the revetment or 20¢ towards
the riprap, and 20¢ towards the community tax district, then there won't be any raise in
taxes.
So one girl, she went around, and she sold them on this and, Betsey, was it Weincam?
I think it is. She's the one that pushed it for the tax district and it helped a lot.
We used to have crab feasts that we got together and everybody chipped in, and we didn't
know what we were doing, but we made money. In the tax district, they had a crab feast
and they lost money, and how can you lose money on a crab feast? They hired a big chant
and they did this, and till they got the idea they had to spend it wisely. They've redone the
Community house, a beautiful place down there now and right on the water, and the water's
�19
20 feet away, and the whole waterfront, they tried to landscape it. And, they have a
Waterfront Committee and the building and grounds and they put siding on it. We do have
problems sometimes, spells of, I don't know, insiders or outside teenagers, they like to see
their name in print, so they write their name all over the buildings. So they'd knock on their
doors and say, "You have to pay for this". It's not too smart to write your name on
something [Laughing] Well, they're defacing it.…[Pause in tape; videographer says "all
right, all right, roll it" and interview continues.]
Interviewer Ginger Corson: You want to tell us about this?
Rich Bauman: This is a display my Dad had at the Hecht Company down in Washington,
DC. It was probably about 4 feet square, and it had all these little houses. The man who
went through here that did this was, it was probably about 8" thick and this was what was
called at the time 'Bay View Inn.’ It was an exact replica of the building which is now the
Brick House which is the original property and was called 'Brick House Farm.’ The fellas
they have running it now didn't know whether to call it Shady Side Grill or Brick House Grill,
or whatever it is, and that would be perfect ‘cause that was the name of the farm, Brick
House Farm. These little houses were at, each one of these was an actual house that was
on that piece of ground. [Pointing to a particular location on the display.] Now there, I
think, that was the fella that owned the Thomas Lumber Company; and all these little tiny
ones, there's a little tiny one here that was down by the harbor. It looks like a garage, but it
was a little house. I took all of these things, or my Dad did, and he had them in an old Half
& Half can. I ran across them and said, "I know those houses.” This was sort of like a
three catamaran house that was made out of simulated logs and they were back at the end
where all the trees are, they fit better back there. All of these are actual shapes of the
houses. This is just a few of them. And these trees were just pieces of sponge dyed
green, you know, that's all these things over here, they're simulated trees. The piers they
had right there, and they didn't have quite that much sand, but they did have a sand beach
there.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: So there's no sand there now?
Rich Bauman: No sand, though, they want to try to put jetties out, and you're talking big
money trying to put a big jetty out there. And after a while, there was getting a lot of stuff
that looked like wet peat moss in there, and you'd go in there and it'd go up probably 6
inches on your calf.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Cabbage grass?
Rich Bauman: I don't know what it was, but it was terrible. I mean the sand was under it,
but it's got a nice sandy beach. There's sand on the bottom here, it's really nice. The stuff
was right along the edge of that stuff, and it sort of kept you away.
And these houses, it was a pretty nice little house. It had two bedrooms, living room and
kitchen and probably a dining area, and they sold for $1,845 and that included - they called
�20
them bungalows -- included the land and the bungalow. And it had electricity in it and it
didn't have the septic system in, but they had a place (they had a bathroom in it) when they
put chemical toilets in. And this was a promotional thing, it was in the Hecht Company, and
it was there for a long time. It was out in our garage taking up room and we didn't know
what to do with it and it's too nice to throw away, and, finally, this is what's left of it.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: You need to frame it.
Rich Bauman: Well, I have one in the scrap book over at the Salem Avery Museum, I
mean it's the Shady Side Rural Heritage Museum. [Laughing] I have to get that in there. It
just happens to be in the Shady Side Salem Avery House [Laughing]. Thank you, Glorious.
She makes a point of that ‘cause it's for Shady Side, things like we're doing today, and
Avalon Shores, all these subdivisions in here are included in Shady Side. Now I think that's
what she wants, memorabilia from the development of Shady Side, and Salem Avery
happened to be down here and all these other watermen down here, too. We just
happened to be in there.
You've got another house there. [Old-house photograph from 1944 being displayed.] Oh,
that's the house we're in. My Dad purchased this from the Dennis family, part of the Dennis
family. This part didn't get along with the other part, the cousins, or whatever they were.
So they asked my Dad if he wanted to buy it, so he said "sure, that's a lovely place",
[laughing] a little paint and re-doing would be fine, but it had a little porch, like all of them
had, low porches. You know, they didn't go all the way up. And this here is the same
house we're in right now and you bring up another picture, and you'll see how it evolved.
This was going to be a slab, but it turned out to be a louvered porch with knotty pine. And
this is the original house with a door on the side here. This door comes out on the side
here, and the door to this side was a window. That was the other wing that was put on a
few years later. It ends up being close to 80 feet across. I think it was originally three
acres, but due to erosion underneath, I think it's probably about 2 1/2 acres now. We've got
250 feet on the waterfront, and it goes back to a point about 500 feet back. So we lucked it
out. Usually, they have the small part on the Bay, and it widens out in the back, which you
can't do anything about. And we have so much land now that the people that they had built
houses right on the property line. And I said, well, you don't have any backyard, you can
use it, just don't junk it up. Then they made a nice place. They cut down all this poison ivy
and the honeysuckle, and they got grass growing back there, and they get to use it and it
looks nice in back there now.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Good, good! Did you want to go outside and take some
pictures out there, George?
Ok, we'd like to thank you very much for talking with us
today and for letting us come to your house on this cold January morning in the middle of
January in the year 2001.
�21
Rich Bauman: It's a pleasure. I love talking about Cedarhurst cause my Dad died down
here, and I think I'll go, too. Maybe not in the same way, falling off a chair!
Interviewer Ginger Corson: [Laughing]. Well, let's keep you around a little bit longer.
Rich Bauman: I hope to; I hope to be around a lot longer. Miss Ethel, she had to pass
away when she was close to 109, she was my plateau.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: There you go, there you go.
Rich Bauman: I thought maybe she'd be 120, I thought that was hard to pass, maybe
109 is fine.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Good goal to shoot for!
Rich Bauman: Sure.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Yeah, alright, thanks.
Rich Bauman: You're welcome. [Interview ends. Camera moves outside to front of
house then to bay side of property.]
Richard Bauman
Richard Joseph "Rich" Bauman, 76, of Shady Side, died of cancer on Jan. 13, 2004, at Heritage
Harbour Health and Rehabilitation Center. Mr. Bauman was born in Washington, D.C., and
graduated from American University. He was a draftsman at the David Taylor Model Basin in
Cabin John from 1952 to 1969 and a bookkeeper at King Rentalo in Rockville from 1972 to
1995. He also was vice president of Bauman Enterprises in Shady Side from 1986 to 2000. He
was vice president of the Shady Side Rural Heritage Society, which operates the Capt. Salem
Avery House Museum, and was an active member of the Cedarhurst Citizens Association. On
June 7, 1958, he was married to Edith D. Bauman. Also surviving are one son, Norman "Mike"
Blalock of Rockledge, Fla.; one daughter, Lisa Takala of Damascus; eight grandchildren; and
two great-grandchildren. He was the son of the late Walter M. and Vivienne Donner Bauman.
Visitation is from 7 to 9 p.m. tomorrow at Hardesty Funeral Home, 905 Galesville Road,
Galesville, where services will be at 10 a.m. Saturday. Burial will be in Gate of Heaven
Cemetery in Silver Spring.
Memorial contributions may be made to the Capt. Salem Avery House Museum, 1418 E.W.
Shady Side Road, P.O. Box 89, Shady Side, MD 20764.
�
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Oral Histories - Voices of Shady Side
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Captain Avery Museum
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2001018-Bauman-Rich
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ORAL HISTORY
Weems, F.Ray
Captain Avery Museum
2001.017
Interview of F. Ray Weems
Interviewed by Ginger Corson
Date of Interview: November 15, 2001
Oral History Chairperson: Mavis Daly
Video by George Daly
Transcribed by:
Edited by:
Donna Williams: January 31, 2004
Lynn DePont, October 9, 2004
[Tape begins after Ms. Corson had begun to introduce Mr. Weems.]
Interviewer Ginger Corson: ...2001 and we're having a visit today with Ray Weems who's
going to share his memories of Shady Side with us. Thanks for joining us today.
Ray Weems: You're welcome. Thank you for inviting me.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: So, let's start with your full name and when and where you
were born.
Ray Weems: OK, my full name is Fernando Ray Weems, and I was born in Shady Side,
Maryland in 1936.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: And how about your parents? What are their full names?
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Ray Weems: My father's was Fernando Wilson Weems and my mother was Mamie Lena.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK, What was Mamie Lena’s maiden name?
Ray Weems: Jenkins.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. And where were they born?
Ray Weems: My Dad was born in Shady Side, and my mother was born either in Alabama
or Texas, I'm not 100% sure right now.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: You said something about her; she went to college and then
came to Shady Side?
Ray Weems: She graduated from Baylor College in Texas and then came to Maryland to
teach school.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. Do you know where Baylor College is in Texas by any
chance?
Ray Weems: I believe it's in the central part of Texas.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Like around San Antonio or something?
Ray Weems: I believe it is.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: How about your grandparents? Did you know them at all?
Ray Weems: Yes, because they lived with us when we were young. I know they both
were born in Alabama.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. What were their names?
Ray Weems: Now you got me! [Laughing.]
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. Was this the Weems side or your mother's side.
Ray Weems: My mother's side.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Your mother's side, OK.
Ray Weems: I'd have to think about that.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. How about the Weems grandparents?
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Ray Weems: They were born, my grandfather was born in the West River area; and my
grandmother, I'm pretty sure, was born in England. She was a Hartge, in that family.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: And what was her name?
Ray Weems: Her name was Ida Hartge.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Is that Ida Belle?
Ray Weems: Ida Belle, correct.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK, and she was from England, not Germany? I think I heard
she came from Germany.
Ray Weems: I think she might've; I'm getting that confused a little bit.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. And then you know your grandfather Weems' name?
Ray Weems: He was Wilson T. Weems, Wilson Thomas Weems [of Red Top Farm].
Interviewer Ginger Corson: All right. When you were growing up, did you have any aunts
or uncles that lived near by?
Ray Weems: Yes, I had an aunt that lived in Friendship, who was on my father's side, her
name was Aunt Sarah, and I had Ida Grimes, who was also my father's sister, that lived in
the Annapolis area.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. So there were like, cousins that would wind up around
the house.
Ray Weems: Yeah.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: How about your brothers and sisters; you want to name them
for me?
Ray Weems: Well, I had four sisters and two brothers. My oldest sister is Angelyn, then
came my brother [Richard] Dick, then my brother [Wilson] Dale, Martha, myself, a younger
sister Nancy, and Marianne.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: And do any of those live near by?
Ray Weems: Angelyn lives in Edgewater; Dale lives in Maine (he is now deceased), Dick
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still lives in Shady Side. My sister Martha just recently moved back here [Virginia] from the
east coast of Texas; Nancy lives in South Atlanta, Georgia; and Marianne lives in
Greenville, South Carolina. [Note: Marianne died on March 22, 2004. See obituary at the
end of this transcript.]
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Now how long has your family lived in Shady Side? Do you
have any projection on when the Weems first got here?
Ray Weems: Well, based on a book that my sister’s family did, probably early 1800's, late
1700's.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Do you know where they came from?
Ray Weems: They came from Scotland, in this area.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. Can you describe for me exactly where you grew up, like
where the house was?
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Ray Weems: The house is still there, on West River Road; and there's been some
changes now from when we grew up there, but it's still standing.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: When you're going down West River Road, is it the first
house on the right?
Ray Weems: That's the big house on the right.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Do you know who lives there now?
Ray Weems: No I don't know who bought that there on South Creek, on the left from the
back of the house.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. What kind of amenities did it have when you were
growing up that might have been a wonderment?
Ray Weems: Electricity and I remember we had the bathroom put in; then, later, a
telephone.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: That was a big deal, huh?
Ray Weems: I think it was.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Ok. How about church? Did you all go to church on a regular
basis?
Ray Weems: We went to the Methodist Church
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Which one?
Ray Weems: Centenary Methodist Church.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK, how about school?
Ray Weems: I went to Shady Side Elementary and Southern High School.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Alright, and describe the elementary school for us; the
building, the teachers, the principal, school grounds.
Ray Weems: Well, it was a four-room, if I remember, and Miss Ethel Andrews was the
principal, and Mrs. Nowell was the teacher then 'Nellie Nowell,’ her name was, I think they
called her; also Mrs. Linton was a teacher there.
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Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. Were any of them a particular favorite or a particular
fear?
Ray Weems: Well I don't want to say 'fear,' but school was important not only to learn out
of books, but you learned a lot about the way things should be done and how you should
do it. And if you didn't do it, you heard about it when you got home. [Laughing.]
Interviewer Ginger Corson: What type of chores did you have to do before you went off to
school?
Ray Weems: Well, there were seven of us and all of us had something to do. So I took
care of the chickens and got the eggs in the evening. Also, it was my job to get kindling
wood overnight and have it for the next morning.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: And how about your brothers and sisters, did they have any
special chores that may be one had a better chore than the other or something? Do you
remember any rivalry like that?
Ray Weems: Well, not really. I think the chores were pretty well delegated according to
age. As you got older it got a little more difficult for you.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Ok, that sounds pretty fair [Laughing.]
Ray Weems: You had cows to milk and pigs to feed and all that, so.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: That's incredible, when you think that growing up you had all
those animals around; and now, if somebody had a cow in their yard, you'd think it was a
big deal.
Ray Weems: They'd call the police!
Interviewer Ginger Corson: [Laughing.] What types of things did your family do for fun,
like going to the beach or park or zoo anything like that?
Ray Weems: Well, we never really went to the beach. Being on the farm, a lot of us kids
and always four or five more kids in the neighborhood then, we kind of made our own fun.
We’d play ball, and in summer we went swimming in the river and did crabbing. In winter
we did a lot of ice-skating.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: How about crabbing? What would you do to crab?
Ray Weems: We either do dip netting or called a seine, you know, a net that you pulled
along to catch crabs.
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Interviewer Ginger Corson: How about soft crabs? Did you ever go out soft crabbing?
Ray Weems: Quite a bit.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Did you do it same way?
Ray Weems: Just netting and we did pull seine; and if we caught some hard crabs and
soft crabs, too, it was a big thing.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: [Laughing.] It still is! Did you ever go on vacation or take any
trips that you remember?
Ray Weems: I really don't remember us taking a vacation. We'd visit members of family.
We had cousins on the Eastern Shore and Annapolis. I guess back at that time,
Chesapeake Beach, we’d go down for the afternoon. We always had the Farm Bureau
Picnics down in that area
Interviewer Ginger Corson: What about family reunions? Have you all ever gotten
together, all of you?
Ray Weems: Yes, when we were growing up, that was our big summer activity.
Everybody looked forward to the family reunion in August. It would be uncles, aunts and
cousins there, a lot of relatives there. My father believed in family getting together, and for
the last few years, we've had some in our generation.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Good. When you were growing up and you were sick, what
did your family do? Was the doctor called, or did you use herbs or any special
concoctions?
Ray Weems: Well, we often talk about that. You know, we didn't have a family doctor, all
of us are still here. So, I guess there was a lot of family remedies for colds and sore
throats.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Anything you remember in particular?
Ray Weems: You mean any particular sickness?
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Right, a treatment that you received.
Ray Weems: I do remember when I was probably five or six, I had scarlet fever, and the
doctor come there. And, of course, they had me quarantined upstairs in my room, and the
other brothers and sisters would sneak up and all those things. But I guess I was there for
a period of time and got better.
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Interviewer Ginger Corson: You didn't get any horrible pills or anything that you took
while you were quarantined?
Ray Weems: My mother gave me some pills. I guess I took some pills, I really can't
remember. I remember we all got measles, one got 'em and we all got 'em. There'd be
four or five of us in a room with the measles. Then the mumps came. I guess it was a
matter of time, and they cured us.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Do you remember the doctor's name at all?
Ray Weems: I remember a Dr. John down in Avalon Shores.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: I've heard him mentioned a lot.
Ray Weems: He was right across the river , but you’d have to drive around to get to him, I
guess it was kind of a situation that we weren't used to. So whatever you did, you didn't
know any different.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Well, that’s kind of good.
Ray Weems: Oh, yes. Right.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: And you just got the normal thing.
Ray Weems: I did fall off a horse one time, and my father was cultivating the garden or
whatever, and I was up on a horse. I think I fell asleep, I mean I fell off and sprained my
arm. They thought it was broken and they took me over to him. And I remember him
putting a splint on it. That was a big thing.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. Were there any memorable traditions that your family
practiced, like every Sunday you would do a certain thing or eat a certain thing?
Ray Weems: Well, just about every Sunday we went to church, and I remember my Dad
killing five or six chickens on Saturday so we could have them on Sunday, whether it would
be fried or baked. Because when we sat down and it was usually seven of us, and my
mother and father and grandmother and grandfather. So there was enough there. We
consumed a little bit of food.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Sure, wow! Now can you remember any stories about old,
old Shady Side that somebody might have told you when you were a child? You know,
that are long gone?
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Ray Weems: I guess one of the things that really sticks in my mind [telephone rings in
background]..they would take the sleigh or whatever out on the West River and cut ice and
put it in the icehouses, and the real deep snows, you know, that sticks in my mind.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: So it was mostly weather-related?
Ray Weems: And summer-related. The activities that went on at the Hotel Andrews.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Anything specific?
Ray Weems: Not really, other than just having a good time, I heard people were talking
about it.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: That was a big deal?
Ray Weems: That was a big deal, 'cause they had their own fishing boat. And I remember
them talking about steamboats coming, and the 'Emma Giles.'
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Anybody ever actually get on it that you knew?
Ray Weems: Probably some of my relatives that came from Baltimore.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. What inventions or development changed your life and
how when you were growing up?
Ray Weems: Well, I guess when we finally got electricity it started to change our lives and
everybody else’s in the neighborhood, and television, I guess, was another big thing.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: When you got electricity, how did it get there? Did somebody
have to come, I mean, did everybody get it at the same time? Or you got it because you
knew somebody? Or you had the money? Do you remember any of the details of that?
Ray Weems: Ginny, I really don't. I remember there was some people that didn't have it
and a lot of people that did. How that was gotten or why, I guess whatever was available,
and I guess being able to pay for it had something to do with it.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: It was probably like indoor plumbing where a lot of older
people said 'I don't want that in my house.'
Ray Weems: That's exactly, they were used to that lamp and they wanted to keep it.
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Interviewer Ginger Corson: Sure. Did anybody in your family ever serve in the military?
Ray Weems: Yes, all three of us brothers did.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: During any particular war or just.....
Ray Weems: My brother, Dale, was in during the Korean War and then when my brother
Dick went in when the Korean War was over; and then when I went in it was a conflict, but it
wasn't in wartime.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Which branch of the service?
Ray Weems: I was in the Army, and my brother Dick was in the Army, and Dale was in the
Navy and Air Force.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Uh ok. Tell me a little bit more about your father, like what
was his occupation, where did he work?
Ray Weems: Well, I remember Dad being more of a farmer, and in later years he was
sanitarian for the health department; and I guess it was a little bit before my time that I can
remember, but he was a Deputy Sheriff for Anne Arundel County. And he used to tell us
stories about that.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Any you'd care to share?
Ray Weems: I guess he used to talk a lot about the bootlegging situation that was going
on back in those days. ‘Course as a kid, it was always exciting to hear about those stories.
In the winter when it would snow, we used to always sit around, and he'd always tell us
stories because there wasn't anything else to do. So they were fond memories.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Cool. How about your Mom? Did she work outside the
home?
Ray Weems: Well, Mother taught school in Anne Arundel County after the kids were
raised, and before that I think she was a teacher for 37 years.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Wow! Now your mother lived a really long life, didn't she?
Ray Weems: Yeah. She died; she was just about ready to turn 91 when she died.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: And how old was your Dad when he passed?
Ray Weems: Dad died in ’74.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: 'Cause I mean your mother died just recently?
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Ray Weems: Yeah, about four years ago.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Wow. When you were growing up, where would you go -well, obviously you didn't have to buy eggs, didn't look like you had to go anywhere for milk.
How about sugar and flour?
Ray Weems: Well the one I remember most, I guess, is the one right across the road from
where it used to be, is Renno's. Well, it's still Renno's; but before that, it used to be, I think,
a fellow named Crompton opened it first?
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Ok. Al right.
Ray Weems: And then I think Renno bought it, I know the family bought it. But I
remember further up the road you used to go up to Dent Road, and there's a Crandall's
store there. I used to go with my Dad. Leatherbury's store on the corner at Cedarhurst
Road. And then there was Swinburns' store as you come down across from Andrews
Hotel.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: So, he didn't have a particular favorite?
Ray Weems: No, we never went that much to really get anything.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Now when you bought sugar and flour; how did it come?
Ray Weems: Flour, I remember the big bags of flour, you know, like this [shows height
from floor with hand] and sugar, probably bigger than they are now. I remember my father
taking wheat and corn off to get it ground up for flour and buckwheat, cakes and those
types of things.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Where would you take that?
Ray Weems: We'd take it up to a place in Lothian on 408. There was a Moreland Store
there.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Oh, no kidding? I hadn't heard anybody talk about that yet.
Do you remember a store down here, like across from the ball field?
Ray Weems: Yeah, that was, in later years it became a surplus store. You know, I can't
recall the name. Brashear's! Brashears had that store. I'm not sure.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Do you remember a Hartge being in on that?
Ray Weems: No, I don't; that was before my time.
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Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. When did you move away from home?
Ray Weems: Well, I was drafted in the Army in 1958, and that was my first trip away from
home. And I was gone for two years.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Where did you go?
Ray Weems: In the service?
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Yes.
Ray Weems: When I was drafted, I went to South Carolina for some training; and I went to
Texas for infantry training.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Which part?
Ray Weems: Fort Hood. I left that area, and I was sent to West Point, New York, there for
reception services and stayed my time at the Military Academy.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Oh, cool!
Ray Weems: So I had pretty good duty there.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Tough winters?
Ray Weems: Yeah, right.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: How about marriage? When were you married and to whom?
Ray Weems: Let's see. I married Janet Turner from Tracy's Landing, and we got married
in 1962. Boy, I hope that's right. [Laughing.]
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Well, if it's not 'on the nose'..... And how did you meet Janet?
Ray Weems: Well, Janet was a good friend of my younger sister, Marianne; they went to
school together. And, of course, she would visit us, and they were always there. At that
time, you know, they were just little kids to me, and Marianne was the youngest. Then
when I was gone for two years and came back, my sister grew up and also Janet did. So
the next thing you know, we dated and we got married.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: How about children?
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Ray Weems: We have two daughters, Brenda and Laurie. Brenda is now 39 and Laurie is
34.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Now I understand you have a family business?
Ray Weems: Yes.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Tell me more about that.
Ray Weems: The name of the business is Southern Maryland Cable. We started it in
1982 and worked for the telephone company and we've grown from a couple of employees
to a little over a hundred.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: I read in the newspapers you're one of the largest employers
in Southern Anne Arundel County.
Ray Weems: Yeah, I read that, too!
Interviewer Ginger Corson: You were surprised? [Laughing.]
Ray Weems: Well, I never really paid that much attention to it.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: So, who would be interested in your services?
Ray Weems: Well, we do work for Verizon Communications and several other
communications companies. We do a lot of work for the Federal government, and Calvert
County government and Frederick County government. We've done work for Anne Arundel
County, and we've done pretty much of the hook-ups for the Anne Arundel new Medical
Center.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Well, good.
Ray Weems: And do work in several states.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: And all four of you work in the.…
Ray Weems: All four of us work together.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: That's neat. Now are your girls married at all.
Ray Weems: Yeah, Brenda, the oldest, is married, and she has three children, two girls
and a boy. And Laurie, she was married, she's divorced now, and she has a son, 9.
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Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. Well, that is just so cool. And so how far is work away
from home?
Ray Weems: My home (pointing to himself)? About 700 feet. [Laughing.] It's right
behind the business, it's set up right behind the house, we have a building, an office
building in back. Brenda lives in Virginia, and she works three days per week out of her
home, sometimes four, and Laurie lives in Annapolis, and she's there everyday.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Cool place to work. Now how did you come about these
skills, to be in this line of work? I mean, how did you learn to do them?
Ray Weems: Well, I was born and raised on the farm, and when I came home from the
service, we were still doing the farm operation. And as time went on, and labor and what
have you, we sold the farm, and I went to work for the utility contractor, and I got the
opportunity to go with Levitts & Sons, the builders there, and I went there and got the
training in home utilities. And then I became a private manager in which I dealt with
telephone people, and electric people, and I got licensed and everything to join. So, in
1972 I partnered with a fella, he and I started doing work with the telephone company, and
we worked together for ten years; and then he wanted to go one way and I wanted to go
the other, so we broke apart, and I started Southern Maryland Cable.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Neat, neat. Alright. Let's go back to “old time” Shady Side
again, and I want you to tell me about any colorful or interesting characters you remember
or that you knew in the community.
Ray Weems: Oh, boy! Everybody was interesting, I guess, in their own way, I guess I
have to say the most colorful person was Miss Ethel Andrews, what do you want to call it, a
kind of the “unofficial mayor,” that was well-respected and that's kind of a hard one right off
the bat.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Well, I remember in growing up that there were lots of people
that you'd see walking down the side of the road, that there was usually a story behind
them. Anybody like that come to mind? Jim Brent comes to mind. [Laughing.]
Ray Weems: Yeah, a lot of the black people walked and had their own distinction of size,
and the way they dressed. But when I think back now, there was a lot of people that just
walked on the road.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Ok. Do you remember hearing of anybody famous ever
coming to Shady Side?
Ray Weems: No I can't. I don't know what you mean by famous, like an actor or...?
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Interviewer Ginger Corson: Yeah. Well, I mean because I know we had our own Senator
here with James Atwell But I'd heard that Babe Ruth was in town to go fishing and things
like that. But nobody ever came across West River Road?
Ray Weems: I don't remember that.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. All right, tell me about the bay freezing over?
Ray Weems: I can remember the times I would see the barges out on the bay. I really
don't recall anybody going out with a sleigh or cars or anything which the older generation
talks about; but I remember us ice skating in most of the areas around here that we thought
was half-way safe that we could ice skate on.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: 'Cause you could go clear to Galesville.
Ray Weems: Oh, yeah, we used to skate from our house to Galesville frequently. It was
one of our means of transportation, if you wanted to go to Galesville.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: And what would you do when you were in Galesville?
Ray Weems: We'd always take some shoes or boots with us, and we'd wander around,
and try not to get in trouble and come back home.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: [Laughing.] Oh, Ok.
Ray Weems: But the wind would usually blow straight down the river where we lived, and
we usually took a big old blanket or a sheet, and two or three of us would hold onto that
and the wind would bring us home.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: That is so cool!
Ray Weems: That was a lot of fun.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Wow, I mean that was technically a sport in and of itself. You
don't see anybody doing that any more.
Ray Weems: And occasionally we'd build our own little ice boat out of a sleigh and have a
little sail on it, take it around there.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: That's neat. How about flooding?
Ray Weems: I guess it was later years, maybe in high school, we used to go sleigh riding
up at Cumberstone. They had a big old farm back in there that had some nice hills on it,
and we'd always sleigh ride.
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Interviewer Ginger Corson: You thought I said sledding? I said 'flooding'.
Ray Weems: Flooding! Oh, I'm sorry.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: That's Ok, [Laughing.] 'cause that was a good story, too.
Ray Weems: You know, I only remember one time when we had one of the hurricanes,
and I'm not sure which one that was, that the water came way up in our backyard; and I
guess the house from the river is probably 200' or so, and the water did come up that high.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Did it get in the house?
Ray Weems: No, it probably halfway up there that time.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Wow! Do you remember if it was in the 60's, '70's or '50's?
Ray Weems: That was probably in the '50's. And it used to always flood out on the road
there by, just before Renno's Market, that little dip there?
Interviewer Ginger Corson: By Lula G. Scott?
Ray Weems: Yeah.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Right, right. I think it still does. [Laughing.] Ok. I'm going to
mention a few places associated with early Shady Side and you tell me what you
remember about them or remember hearing about 'em: The Andrews Hotel?
Ray Weems: I remember Andrews Hotel very much because, like I said earlier, my Dad
used to raise a lot of vegetables and stuff, and he'd take 'em down to Miss Ethel. Miss
Ethel used to buy corn, tomatoes and eggs, and butter, and I used to be with him most of
the time and he took me down there. And then as my brothers got older, they took them
down, but I still went with him. Miss Ethel would either give you a nice hot roll with some
jelly on it or a cookie or something. So that was a treat.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Neat, neat.
Ray Weems: But I remember the carnival that they used to have there and it was right
across from the Hotel, and we used to park out on Miss Ethel's lot there.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: How about the 'Emma Giles'?
Ray Weems: I don't recall anything but conversations and pictures in books.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Did your father ever deal with the 'Emma Giles'?
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Ray Weems: I remember my father saying that he was shipped out in the Navy to
Baltimore on the 'Emma Giles'.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: OK. Showboat?
Ray Weems: No, I wasn't exposed to that. I don't remember anything about it.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Don't remember any specific stories?
Ray Weems: No.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: How about the post office?
Ray Weems: I remember the old original post office across from the Hotel. I think Miss
Ethel ran the post office at that time.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: She kind of did everything, didn't she? [Laughing.]
Ray Weems: Yes, she did. She was “a” person.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: The movie theater?
Ray Weems: Yeah, I remember the movie theater across from the grocery store there.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Do you remember any specific movies that you saw?
Ray Weems: I don't think our parents let us go to the movies, to tell you the truth, not at
my age. The older children probably, but not our age. I remember it being there.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Do you remember a car sales lot? I think it was a Ford lot?
Ray Weems: No I don't remember that. Next to that, in that area?
Interviewer Ginger Corson: I believe so. You don't remember anything specifically?
Ray Weems: No, I don't remember that.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: How about a local newspaper?
Ray Weems: Yeah, The Great Swamper.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Were you ever written up in it?
Ray Weems: No, I wasn't. But, I remember the paper.
�18
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Ok. Anything else you wanted to specifically mention?
Ray Weems: Not really, but my heart will always be in Shady Side as long as I live, I
guess.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Isn't that funny? It's almost like a heart-shaped sign gets in
your blood?
Ray Weems: Exactly.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: And when they say 'you can't go home', I don't think that's
true about Shady Side, do you?
Ray Weems: No, I just have great fond memories of the people and our family and it just
brings back good thoughts.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: Ok, well, good, good. Well, thank you so much for joining us
today. I've learned a lot more about Shady Side, and I know that our viewers will really
enjoy hearing about your memories of Shady Side.
Ray Weems: Well, thank you for having me, and I enjoyed every minute of it.
Interviewer Ginger Corson: All right, good.
[Interview ends.]
Post Script: Obituary of F. Ray Weems’ sister, Marianne Weems Baldree (follows below).
Marianne Weems Baldree, of Edisto Island, Greenville, South Carolina, died March 22,
2004 at her home. Born in Shady Side, MD, she was a daughter of the late Fernando
Wilson and Mamie Lena Jenkins Weems. She was a member of Mt. Pisgah Baptist
Church. Surviving are daughter, Kelly Baldree Lusk of Piedmont; sons, Terry Baldree of
Greer, Troy Baldree of Greenville, and Todd Baldree of Simpsonville; sisters, Angelyn
Virginia Parks of Maryland, Martha Weems Sawyer of Virginia, Nancy Weems Carpenter of
Georgia; brothers, Richard Jenkins Weems, Fernando Ray Weems, both of Maryland; 12
grandchildren; and one great-grandchild. She was predeceased by a brother, Wilson Dale
Weems. Memorial services were held March 26 at Mt. Pisgah Baptist Church. Memorials
may be made to Pendleton Place Children’s Shelter, P.O. Box 10323, Greenville, SC
29603. (Williamston, Pelzer, West Pelzer, Piedmont & Powdersville Journal, South
Carolina, March 31, 2004.)
�
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Oral Histories - Voices of Shady Side
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Captain Avery Museum
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Text
ORAL HISTORY
Brown, Lucretia
Captain Avery Museum
1998.011
#1998.011.003
Date of Interview:
November 4, 1998
Interview of Lucretia Brown
Interviewed by M. L. Faunce
Oral History Chairperson: Mavis Daly
Video by George Daly
Transcribed by: Donna Williams on December 12, 2003
Edited by:
Lynn DePont, February 14, 2004
[Some static, speaker starts, stops, starts again.]
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: We're here on the West River. Today we have Lucretia Brown
who is an ancestor of Capt. Salem Avery; she was born here, and is actually fourth
generation. Lucretia, can you tell us a little bit about your parents and tell us a little
something about what they did?
Lucretia Brown: Well, my mother was a granddaughter of Capt. Salem Avery, and she
was born up around Galesville near Route 468. My daddy was born at Shady Side, and he
was a carpenter and he was one of the only carpenters, he and his partner Capt. Bill Appel.
And they developed a lot of Avalon Shores and Columbia Beach and Idlewilde and there
was small summer homes around here. I was born in July 10, 1922, and I was one of three
children and the baby of the family, and I lived across from St. John's Church, going down
the road before you take the County Road. And I went to the school on the corner. I could
walk to school and it was about a block away, and when the weather would get real bad,
some days my Daddy would have to take me to school on his back because I didn't have
any boots. And we played on the river. The ice was bad and we had wild, hard winters,
lots of snow and lots of ice, and that was our main source of entertainment.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: You said that you ice-skated on the bay and on the river and
you went sledding, for heaven’s sake. It's pretty flat area around here. Where did you
manage to sled?
Lucretia Brown: We would go about five miles up to the road where there is some hilly
country up there and take to the hills up there. We would also attach several sleds to the
back of one of the mother's cars of one of the children in the group, and about eight sleds
would be in the back of the car. We would just pull up to the Dixon's service station, which
is up in the Galesville area, and we would turn around and come home. We would, at the
1
�2
time, be about the only car on the road. We would build snow forts across the road and
throw snowballs. There wasn't anybody to bother us, like a car coming or anything. And,
one day when I was young and ice-skating and I fell down Parish Creek and I broke my leg
in four places And as I lay in the ice crying, everybody wondered what I was crying for. So
those were the things that we did.
�3
In the summer, we swam. Everybody. Then, we would take a rowboat and leave Parish
Creek, five of us girls rowed to the Rhode River and have a picnic and spend the day. And
one time we were there and the tide went out, and the boat sat on the sand bar. We
couldn't get out. Eventually, one of the fathers came and got us down and brought us
home.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well I hear you were a little bit of a tomboy? Is that true?
Lucretia Brown: [Laughing] Well, yes, there was hardly a tree that I didn't climb and I
lived across the road from the Leatherbury girl, Lavenia Leatherbury, and there was an
apple tree in my yard. And every morning when the weather permitted, I would go out and
get up in that apple tree and say "playmate, come out to play with me". And she would
come out on the porch and she would answer me, and that went on until 60 years and,
well, she's no longer here. It was fun. We probably had one doll baby for Christmas, a
stocking with a few oranges in it. My father would go to the woods to get the Christmas
tree and bring the mulch back and the tree would be in the living room, and we all hung our
stockings on the mantle piece, as we called it. I had a good home life, loving parents, I
worshipped my mother and loved my sister and my brother but, anything else? [Laughing]
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well you referred to those childhood days as the good days and
the fact that in those days children didn't have many toys to play with so you made your
way with what you found around the house.
Lucretia Brown: We used to play hopscotch, "run sheep run,” a lot of ball. "Annie Over".
I don't guess anybody's children today [would] even know how to play "Annie Over.” They'd
take a ball and throw it over the house and trust the person on the other side when they
caught it, they’d say they caught it, and then they would run after you, and you would run
so that they couldn't catch you.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: You grew up in the same house that your father built? Is that
right?
Lucretia Brown: No, he didn't build that, no. I grew up in an old house.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Did you grow up in the same house that you live in today?
Lucretia Brown: No, I did not. I lived there about three years after I got married in 1950
and I live up on 468 now. And, after we had to sell the house, it took me a year, when I'd go
down the road, I couldn't even look over there because it just broke my heart to think I
wasn't there any more. But the apple tree is still in the yard. So, I went to Shady Side
School. Miss Ethel was one of my teachers; and she was a strong teacher, I can tell you.
And from there to Southern High School and I went to work with the National Youth
Administration [NYA] for $14 a month. I worked at the Hall of Records in Annapolis and
also at Southern High School.
�4
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Now that was during Roosevelt's administration?
Lucretia Brown: That was the Roosevelt administration. Yeah, and the CCC, yeah, FDR,
the NYA, and a lot of programs, too. And, eventually, I went to work for the government in
D.C. during the War.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: They were lucky; they were needing secretaries.
Lucretia Brown: It was really easy to get a job. I ran into a Mr. Frank White that came
down to the Rural Home Hotel, every summer, he and his wife, and he worked with the
Department of Agriculture and I just talked to him one day and he said "come on over" and I
took the test, and I went to work right away.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, transportation was a little different in those days, and I
guess the roads into Washington from Shady Side were a little different. How did you get
to work?
Lucretia Brown: I would take a ride with anybody that was going over that way, which
wasn't that easy for me, believe me. It was long. You'd go to Upper Marlboro, and go over
one bridge, 14th Street Bridge, and then on to the Department of Agriculture. Many
evenings, I would stand out on the sidewalk and wait for my ride to come, and he would just
be an hour or two hours late, and I'd be standing out there waiting for him, but then it was
safe those days to stand in the street. And then also I had a lot of friends over there, and
quite often I stayed and they had a house and there were about eight girls in there, and
some nights, I just didn't even want to come home. [Laughing]
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: In that period, during the War, would there have been many
people who would've come from this area who went into Washington to work and Baltimore
to work from that distance? It was a bit of a distance in those days.
Lucretia Brown: Yes. Actually, there weren't a whole lot of people down here at that time,
and there was a lot of commuting. The thing that was hard was getting somebody who
could work the hours that I did.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Tell me something about your husband and how you met him
and the family that you came to have with him.
Lucretia Brown: I met my husband through a girlfriend of mine; she was a friend of his.
And, he came down one summer with her, and I met him, and he never missed a weekend
coming back to Shady Side again because he came from Catonsville, and he just thought
he was in heaven when he was down here. So we went together for three years and
married. I have two sons. One now is 44 and one is 41 and I have 6 grandchildren.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Your husband's name was Howard?
�5
Lucretia Brown: Yeah, Howard Brown, and my sons, Mark Brown and Curtis Brown.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: And your grandchildren? [Laughing]
Lucretia Brown: Wow! [Laughing]. Yeah, I have one named Jeremy, who is 18 or 19.
19! And Ricky, who's 16, and Jimmy who's 14, and Kelly, who's 13 and Leanna who's 6
and Leif Brown, who is 3 years old. Any age you want, just come up and see me. And
they are the delight of my life. They've been very, very good to me. When I was widowed,
I had the family there, and it took care of me and it helped me. Sustained me - let's put it
that way.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: So your husband liked Shady Side so much he decided he'd
make his life here with you?
Lucretia Brown: That's right. And, then across from the Rural Home Hotel, there was a
dance hall, and it had a post office in it and rooms upstairs. And he used to stay, if you saw
Miss Mary, and she would have been Miss Ethel's sister-in-law, and he used to have a
room there and stayed there. We went on a lot of boat regattas, and we went fishing, and
we just had a lot of fun together.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: You have another family connection and that's in this home that
we're sitting in today, the Capt. Salem Avery Museum, and you didn't know too much about
Capt. Salem Avery when you were growing up but you certainly have found out a lot about
him today. Tell us a little something about how this whole project here and the starting of
this museum happened?
Lucretia Brown: Well, to be honest with you, I really feel great about this place. I'm proud
to be a part of it. I'm proud to work in it, and the people down here are just wonderful. I've
never had to research this part of the family because all I've had to do is go back and read
one of those books back there and it's all there for me.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: You're the Health Manager here. What does that mean?
Lucretia Brown: Well it means most Sundays I come down here, and I'm also Jesse
Creager's kin. And the Health Manager just makes sure that there's supplies here, and
well, I did pretty good here today by cleaning all these windows.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: No wonder I can see outside, so nice on this beautiful day.
Lucretia Brown: I'm so grateful to have this place. Everybody loved George and Mavis
[Daly] and they have done so much, and everybody has done so much. [Background
doorbell distraction – “somebody’s trying to get in.”]
�6
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: As this museum has gotten started and it's well on its way now
and getting to be quite well known now in the area, you've learned more about your family?
Lucretia Brown: Yes. The Family Bible that's in the living room back there, all I have to
do is open it up, and I can see all my aunts and uncles and cousins and the day they were
born and the day they left this world and it really means a lot to me.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Capt. Salem Avery was, of course, a waterman. Is that a
tradition that continued in your family or some of the ancestors who stayed here and lived
here in Shady Side?
Lucretia Brown: I really don't know, I really don’t know. I know that there were some
watermen in the family but they were from my father's side.
[Slight pause in the tape.]
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Lucretia, I know you've always believed in having fun, having a
good time, and you've shared your personality of enjoying that with everybody you've ever
come in contact with, so I know that you had a lot of fun on the evening of your 75th
Birthday when you had a party right in this same room in the Capt. Salem Avery Museum.
Tell us a little something about that evening. Was it a surprise?
Lucretia Brown: It was one of the biggest surprises of my life. And, it took place right
under, as the old expression goes, right under my nose and I knew nothing about it. And
when I eventually came down here, they held it here, and the kitchen was busy, and I
looked in the door and I saw my grandchildren and I saw my sister and I said "what's my
family doing down there?" It didn't dawn on me what it was, and all of a sudden, it did hit
me, what it was, and I had old, everyday shorts on and my son had tried to make me
change my clothes before I left home, and I wouldn't do it. I just wanted to get down here
because Mavis Daly wanted me to come down and check something out. So I went down
to do that. But there were, I think, 75 people here and a lovely dinner, and a really, really,
really great evening. I'll never, ever forget it.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, I guess you're going for your 100th because that was a
few years ago and you're active and you're busy and you enjoy just about everything you
do.
Lucretia Brown: I may not go for my 100th because I don't want to be the only one down
here. [Laughing]
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well I think you'll have company.
�7
Lucretia Brown: It was an excellent evening. At one time in the community, we had the
first doctor in the community was Dr. Grant and Ann, and they lived next door to me where I
live now. And they've been gone for these many, many years, and they came down to my
birthday party. Of course, I've been friends with them all these years. But they were here
and family and it was quite, quite a nice gathering. All my friends from the Heritage were
here. And I didn't get any birthday presents, though, but I really didn't want any.
[Laughing.] It was fun, it was great fun.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: It just seems like whether you're looking back or whether you're
enjoying today, that there were so many nice memories. We talked a little bit about the fact
that there were children in your era who really didn't have a lot of toys and entertainment
was a little bit limited, but you did have some things that you could do, and what about the
steamboat that would come and dock here? Tell us where that is.
Lucretia Brown: The Steamboat came, and it went to Galesville and Chalk Point and to
Shady Side and went down to Steamboat Road. I do not know if I really remember ever
seeing it, but I think I've heard so many stories about it that I probably, in my mind, have
seen it. But, not living here on the water, everybody else saw it, but being out where I was,
I guess I just never came down.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, you were just a little ways down the road?
Lucretia Brown: I was just a little ways down because I know from friends of mine who
lived on the water that everybody would yell "Steamboat’s coming, steamboat’s coming,”
and everybody would run to the banks. I can remember going down Steamboat Road with
Mr. Andrews, who had the Rural Home Hotel, when he went down to pick his boarders up.
So I also imagine that I was in the boat but I sincerely can't remember ever seeing it down
there.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: The boarding home gave some life and interest to the
community that everyone seemed to enjoy.
Lucretia Brown: If you lived next to the Rural Home Hotel, in the summertime you did not
need to do anything else for entertainment. They took the boarders in everyday at 2 o'clock
for swimming, and in the evening after dinner they took them for a boat ride to watch the
sunset. And I was on every trip. I had meals, I spent the night at the hotel, had friends
there, and I never had to pay. [Laughing.]
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: And it was fun?
Lucretia Brown: And it was fun! It was wonderful growing up down here then. We used
to play ball in the field between the hotel and my house. There was a ditch between the
two places, and I always had the board there. All I had to do was step on that board and
across the field, and then I was at the hotel. We played croquet and tennis and went
�8
crabbing a lot. Crabbing had a lot to do with our growing up. And the hotel always had
rowboats there. We never needed a boat ‘cause the hotel had them there. We would swim
out near Parish Creek, used to climb up the buoys out there and get to the top of them, wait
for a boat to come by, wait for the wake to go by, and as soon as that boat would go by,
into that wake we would jump. Now, if you went out there, you'd get run over by the boats,
there's so many.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Did somebody teach you how to swim and crab, or is that
something you just kind of learned yourself?
Lucretia Brown: Just something we kind of learned. When the sea nettles would get
bad, the boarding boats would go over to Beverly Beach. I think it cost us a quarter to get
in. And as we started growing up as teenagers, Beverly Beach was the place to go
because, of course, it was on the water and they had music and everybody gathered there.
If my mother would let me go….
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Would you mostly go by water and not by car?
Lucretia Brown: No, we would go by car, then.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: And that took you about how long?
Lucretia Brown: About a half an hour. And Sunday traffic, you tried not to go near
Annapolis on Sunday on account of Beverly Beach traffic. Of course, no stoplights were
available. It would probably be the sum of about 30 cars coming out of Beverly Beach on
Sunday evening. We thought that was a traffic jam.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Where were they going?
Lucretia Brown: Going back toward Washington and Annapolis, going home. It was quite
a place. Because they had a net all around it for the sea nettles. And a lot of times we, as
kids, we would row over there and see if we could cut a hole in the net and go through that
way. But we didn't do it very often ‘cause they would watch and not let us in.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: And they had some entertainment there and a pavilion, I
believe?
Lucretia Brown: Yeah. They had a pavilion there and, of course, in the water they had
sliding boards and things any child would like, and sand and picnics.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, there were a number of those communities that had
entertainment or a public beach along the bay, close to here. Could you name some of the
others that were nearby that people might have gone to?
�9
Lucretia Brown: Well, there was Triton Beach and Mayo Beach which were up in that
area, but the main one, when we were growing up, was Beverly Beach. I don't think I'd
ever been to Triton and Mayo, but I know they were there.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce:
beaches?
They were public beaches but they really were private
Lucretia Brown: They were private, yes.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: You had to pay admission to get in?
Lucretia Brown: That's right. Beverly Beach, all had big signs out there with "For Gentiles
Only" on them.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: They were residential beaches, too.
Lucretia Brown: Yes. Bay Ridge was always a good beach, but we couldn't ever get up
there because of transportation. As we got older then and we had children, then we took
them up there. We also went to Chesapeake Beach. Chesapeake Beach was a great
source of entertainment for us, at least once a summer. They would have the Farmers’
Picnic down there, and all big families then. My mother was one of ten children, and
everybody would get together with their picnic baskets and their fried chickens for supper
and meet down at Chesapeake Beach around the 4th of July. And then the train would
come down and we could see that coming. So, anyway, it was great growing up here.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: They were all private beaches, of course, and they did have a
policy that not everybody agreed with, but the owners enforced a certain policy about
admission, and, actually that, because of that, I understand the house, the home itself is
now the Capt. Salem Avery Museum, was owned initially by Jewish families, small groups
of people, who had a fishing lodge, or something like that here. Is that a little bit of the
heritage of this particular building we're in today?
Lucretia Brown: I think a lot of the good things have happened here, and the one thing I
will never forget, one Sunday I was here and this lady, I guess around 50 years old came
in, and she was the granddaughter of one of the ladies that belonged to the lodge. And she
used to come down here with her grandmother. And, when she came in and knew that
she could get back in this building, she was very emotional. And when she went on the
tour, she cried the whole time because she was so happy. To me, that was really, really,
really, really rewarding. [lots of static and noise in the tape at this point]. In fact, we've had
several people come in. And back where the gift shop is where her grandmother's kitchen
was and where she got her food from her back there.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: So you've had continual visits by people who have known
something particular about this house or something about the area?
�10
Lucretia Brown: Well, I have found that having lived here all my life, there have been
people that have come back here and the fact that I have been here, I have been able to
help them, or direct them to who they're hunting for. Lots of times I'll go make a phone call
and say "hey, somebody's coming up to see you", and I like doing that. That makes me
happy. And I have been known to, rather than point it out to them, where they're going, I'll
say "follow me and I'll take you there". And then, of course, you wouldn't be too far away
and you'd come back here.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, at one time, I guess you felt like you knew everybody in
Shady Side?
Lucretia Brown: Yes, I did. So few. Like when I graduated from high school, this is
bringing all the kids in from Linthicum and Harwood and all those areas, there were 28 in
my class. And probably, in Miss Ethel's school, there were about 60 children in the 1, 2, 3,
4, 5, 6 grades, if that many, really. So you knew all the families. As the old saying goes,
everybody was related to everybody. You tried not to tell on your cousin, I guess. So
anyway, but it was fun. I love the fact that I grew up here. Didn't have any electricity in that
house. One of our sources of entertainment, a girlfriend would come up and spend maybe
a Friday night with us. One of the things we did for entertainment was that we'd get a
glass, a white handkerchief and a nickel. And we would do magic tricks with it. I was
talking to her about that the other day, [laughing] and I said “what kind of tricks do you think
we really did, wrap that old nickel up in that handkerchief and do something with it
anyway?” But that's what we did.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, you later worked for the high school, so you kept in touch
with some of your teachers and with some of the people you worked with at the school for
many years?
Lucretia Brown: As of two years ago, I had three teachers, now I have one. And she lives
in Montgomery, Alabama, and I'm still in touch with her and I have been out of school since
1939, so I think that's a pretty good record, isn't it? That’s pretty good.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Yes it is.
Lucretia Brown: At my age to have had three teachers. I went to Montgomery, Alabama
to see her one time, during the War and I was talking about that today. I drove down there
at 50 or 40 miles per hour I think. It took almost three days to get down there because gas
was rationed, I think it was 35 miles an hour, the speed limit, so anyway….
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, you had a nice relationship with the school and you later
worked for Southern High School. You were kind of a - I think you used this - kind of a “cutup” - used it as your 'modus operandi', kind of keep things going and lively, and tell us what
you would do to your poor principal who you were supporting there.
�11
Lucretia Brown: You mean like when I worked as a cashier, or with the secretary at
Locust Elementary School?
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Yes, at the Elementary School.
Lucretia Brown: Well, Betty Morrill was the Principal and was also a very good friend of
mine, and still is, and I would pull tricks on her. Like, if somebody would come in there and
she would be talking, and I would write some silly little note and put it in front of her and she
couldn't keep from laughing.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well you would put something in front of her and you would say
"Pardon me please. Would you sign this at your convenience?" You were just trying to
keep her perspective when things were a little tough; you would try to have a little joke for
her, maybe to get her through things?
Lucretia Brown: If somebody came in and I knew they were salesmen or something and
they wanted to speak to her, she was younger than I, and I would say "well, that's another
secretary, Mrs. Morrill isn't here today.” Of course, that would be the principal, sitting over
there. We just did a lot of things. We had an excellent school, excellent principal, and it
was 24 years of pleasure working there. So now that I'm getting old.....
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, I don't believe that! But, if you don't have any tricks for us
today, I'll just say what a pleasure, Lucretia, to spend a few minutes with you talking about
Shady Side, talking about the Capt. Salem Avery Museum, and you've given all of us some
good memories to remember. Thank you very much.
Lucretia Brown: Thank you, very much, and thank you, cameraman, and please...[tape
stops].
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Oral Histories - Voices of Shady Side
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Captain Avery Museum
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Text
ORAL HISTORY
Groom, Neal Capt
Captain Avery Museum
2000.019
Capt. Neal Groom
Interviewee:
Capt. Neal Groom
Date of Interview: November 25, 2000
Interviewers:
Ginger-Linn Corson & Capt. Howard Shenton
Videographer:
George Daly
Transcribed by:
Donna Williams, February 2006
Oral History Coordinator: Mavis Daly
#2000.019.005
[Interviewer is sitting across from two men who are seated on a sofa across from Ms. Corson.]
Qt: “Welcome. Today is the 25th of November, the year 2000. We’ve all had our Thanksgiving dinners two
days ago, and we’re anxiously awaiting the outcome of our Presidential election to see who’s won, whether
we’re going to have a President Bush or a President Gore. My name’s Ginger Corson, and I’m here today with
Capt. Neal Groom and Capt. Howard Shenton. And we’re going to be talking about early days of Shadyside.
Capt Neal, tell us where you were born and what year you were born.”
NG: “Born 1911 in Middlesex County, Virginia.”
Qt: “What was the name of the town in Middlesex County?”
NG: “ Wake was the local post office that I know of...”
Qt: “Wake? Wake, VA? OK. What year did you come to Shady Side”?
NG: “It was either 38 or 39 I don’t remember but I do know I run oysters the first year to Baltimore. We got
here right at the beginning of the oyster season, and then I run tomatoes for two summers, but I was working at
the experimental station when the Japanese hit Pearl arbor.”
Qt: “The experimental station – what’s that”?
NG: “Up in Annapolis in the government ? center? “
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�Qt: “Is that on the Navy base”?
NG: “Across the river …?North of Dever ??
Qt: “OK. Is that where they call the octopus towers”?
NG: “That’s the North Center and I worked at the experimental station right across the river from Annapolis
where the ships come in. I don’t know the name of it.”
[Capt. Shenton interjects: “Ask Capt. Neal to explain about running oysters to Baltimore, what it entailed, like,
where did he get the oysters, who did he take them to, crate them to, and so forth.”]
Qt: “OK, can I go one step further back from that? How did you know Mr. Halleck”?
NG: “Oh, I’d met him…I’d run a boat in Virginia, see, and the old man died and I didn’t have no job, and,
well, one of my friends knew Capt. Bern.”
Qt: “Capt. Bern Halleck”?
NG: “Uh huh. And he was going to hire a man to run her, and I’d like to have a job, and I come up here for
$18 a week.”
Qt: “$18 a week! OK. And you came up here buy boat”?
NG: “Yeah. I come up here on the deck”
Qt: “On the deck? What kind of a car was it”?
NG: “A Ford.”
Qt: “An old Ford. OK, and what was the name of the boat you came on”?
NG: “Thomas F. Jubb.”
Qt: “The Thomas F. Jubb. And that was owned by Capt. Bern Halleck”?
NG: “Uh huh.”
Qt: “And how All right. So you came into Shadyside…were you alone? Did you have any family with you”?
NG: “No. I brought my wife up after we got settled, you know. It wasn’t real quick. Cause if I was here on
Friday night or Saturday night, I’d go home. It would take about two hours.”
Qt: “By boat”?
NG: “No.”
Qt: “You would drive then”?
NG: “I would drive a car … every chance….”
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�Qt: “All right, so you started working for Capt. Bernard, and you were… What would happen when you said
you would run oysters to Baltimore? What does that mean? You’d get oysters from where”?
NG: “Right here in the river.”
Qt: “You’d catch them”?
NG: “No, I didn’t catch them…I bought them.”
Qt: “OK. So you were the man on the buy boat, when the oystermen would come in with their catch, and then
you’d take the buy boat and just drive on up to Baltimore”?
NG: “That’s right.”
Qt: “And who would you see there? Where would you go in Baltimore?”
NG “What ..Back Basin.”
Qt: “Back Basin”?
NG: “Killion was the man’s name we run the oysters to and …
Qt: “Do you remember how much you got for a bushel of oysters?
NG: “When I come here they was 40 and 60.”
Qt: “$40 and $60 a bushel”?
NG: “No, 40 cents and 60 cents a bushel!”
Qt: “A bushel? Wow! [Laughing] And what was the differentiation? Was one small oysters and one was
large oysters”?
NG: “It was the foolish thing you ever heard. The location. At Cantler’s Bar up there, they had a nice old
round oyster. They paid 60 cents on them. And the most out of…looks like to me…come from Hawkins ??
Point, when I was down the Bay here …and I paid 40 cents for them.”
Qt: “But they didn’t like those oysters”?
NG: “No.”
Qt: “Were they ugly”?
NG: “No, they were pretty oysters!” [Laughing]
Qt: “But they weren’t nicely shaped or something”?
[Capt. Shenton interjects: “What they were…with the price of it was that in most cases, the buyer would have
some one that would shuck them and see the condition of the oysters, whether they were fat or lean. And if the
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�oysters could be fatter on one oyster bar, maybe where the tide was stronger, and so that’s what determined the
price was the condition of the oyster, and whether it was fat or lean.”]
QT: “So it was actually the inside of the oyster that counted. It didn’t matter what the outside looked like”?
[Capt. Shenton: “That’s right. When a bushel of oysters shucked five pints, six pints or eight pints, and that
buyer pretty well knew that before he purchased these oysters. And what Capt. Neal did, he would charge the
freight for taking the oysters from West River to Baltimore. So much per oyster”
Qt; “So where did your buy boat sit when you waited for the men to come in.”
NG: “We just waited. We didn’t catch any oysters.”
Qt: “But were you at a dock when the men came in with their…”?
NG: “We anchored in the Creek.”
Qt: “Parish Creek”?
NG: “Yes. We didn’t have no kind of wharf then. But when we got a run down to Solomon’s Island ? towards
?? ..at that time, we had plenty of oysters. It looks like every other day I’d go down there with 1800 to 2200
bushels oysters. Then I, in the spring of the year, after the oysters, I’d run seed oysters from down the James
River up to Croom’s Island, when Warren Denton canned a lot of oysters on his side(?) ”
Qt: “Warren Denton”?
NG: “Ugh huh. Right where the bridge goes across from Benedict to Horn (?) Point, I planted oysters right
there. He had to dredge them up to build that bridge.” [Laughing]
“Yes sir, the Patuxent River was a good oyster river.”
Qt: “The Patuxent was…what do you think made that a good oyster river?”
NG: “The tide…the tide runs so strong.”
[Capt. Shenton: “Probably a good growing bottom for the oysters.”]
NG “Yeah, that’s right. Harmon (?) Point was a good, hard bottom.”
Qt: “They need a hard bottom”?
NG: “That’s the best.”
Qt: “Do they like sand or mud at all”?
NG: “No, not that…See, it wasn’t wide enough for the wind … you don’t know sea .. just a small shop?, we’d
call it.”
[Capt. Shenton: “What Capt. Neal is telling you is that a packer like Warren Denton or Woodfield up here at
Galesville, they get big contracts to supply shucked oysters to go to chain stores like Safeway or Giant; and in
order to make that supply or keep that supply going, they have to have so-called unlimited access to oysters. So
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�they buy these oysters in the spring of the year, really when the price is low, and put them on leased bottom,
bottoms that have been leased from the State. And they’re usually in sheltered areas, as Capt. Neal has told
you, where they can go there and dredge them and take them up any time that they need them. Otherwise, they
wouldn’t be able to fulfill these big contracts that they have.”]
NG: “Warren Denton, he shucked for Safeway.”
Qt: “He did? So he not only bought the oysters from you, he had the shuckers and canned them and all that
sort of stuff and his plant was where?
NG: “Still there, still working. ‘Course, but Warren Denton been long gone.”
Qt: “Where’s his plant”?
NG: “Croom’s Island.”
Qt: “Croom’s Island . Now did any one else work for you on your buy boat”?
NG: “Yeah, that old colored boy… Zachariah is what we called him. Isn’t that something? I can’t even think
of it. He was from Washington.”
[Capt. Shenton: “I never knew his real name, but they called him ‘Zachariah’’.]
Qt: “Did he live around here”?
NG: “Yes, it was four or five brothers.”
Qt:
“Now when you first came here, where did you live”?
NG: “Oh I lived on the boat until I found a little house that my wife and I could live in. We rented that for $10
a month.”
Qt: “Whom did you rent from”?
NG: “Warren Crandall.”
Qt: “Warren Crandall? And where do you live now?”
NG: “Down on Atwell Road down by the…you know where the laboratory is down there”?
Qt: “Used to be Chesapeake Instrument Company”?
NG: “Uh huh, I’m right next to it.”
Qt: “Who did you buy that house from”?
NG: “Leonard Rogers.”
Qt: “Oh, he was my great uncle.”
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�NG: “Yeah, that’s right. You’re so right. “ [Laughing]
Qt:: “Well, the only reason why I’m not related to you is because you came from Virginia, ‘cause Glorious is
my cousin.”
NG: “Yeah, you see, the two years I worked on the boat, I didn’t get to know the families. Now like the
Niemans and Crandalls … see I knew all them because I bought oysters from them, but the families I never
knew until, oh, after I went to work for the government. See, when they had the draft, I was the first number
come up in Shady Side, and I was too old for combat. So they told me I had to get a government job. So I had
to get off the boat. Capt. Burroughs came by the house one morning and made Janey mad because I didn’t
come see him the night before. ‘Cause she wrote to the Naval Academy and got an application, and it took three
or four before they’d make me ? eligible?, And then when they called me, they told me I had to get off, you
know, and get a defense job. So, it didn’t worry me any. I hated to get off the boat, though, you know ‘cause
people I had growed up with and met all over the Chesapeake Bay, I was ‘gonna miss all that.”
[Capt. Shenton: “Capt. Neal, tell us some of the other things that you freighted on the job besides oysters. That
you ran …tomatoes?]
NG: “Stones!” [Laughing]
Qt: “Stones”? [Laughing]
[Capt. Shenton: “Well, I thought…I was thinking about stones, and that’s an interesting thing because the stone
that they freighted was used to prevent beach erosion. People would buy the stones.]
NG: “All around the shore…every where.”
Qt: “The big stones?”
NG: “Well, they were big to me. That old Italian we dealt with in Baltimore, he said ‘25 to 35 pounds is a oneman stone’, and he said one of the …the colored boys up here, they can carry three or four of them one-man
stones’ and he thinks they all ought to be that big. And if you take a whole load to ? ? Manny ?? little stones.
Now them ? full stones, like one-man stones, they took up a couple under their arms and up and drop ‘em off
wherever they want ‘em.”
Qt: “He didn’t know what strong men we had in Shady Side.”
NG: “That’s right.”
[Capt. Shenton: “The way they did it, as I understand it, was that Capt. Neal would bring the stones wherever
to where they were supposed to be placed. Then they would take and use a lighter, in other words, they would
take a smaller boat to take them off the big boat and take them in shore to where they were to be placed to do
what they were intended t do.]
Qt: “Sure, so it’s technically what I’m thinking of as rip-rap.”
[Capt. Shenton: That’s the right word.”]
NG: “That’s exactly right.”
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�Qt: “And they could get pretty awkward.”
NG: “Yeah. We got some big stones ‘cause (?) Waxton breakwater you know like at, you know, Beverly
Beach, and they had to be 5 or 600 pounds.”
Qt: “Wow.”
[Capt. Shenton: “Well, tell us about running tomatoes, Capt. Neal. Was that a good freight or was it …”]
NG: [Laughing] “I enjoyed it.”
Qt: “Where did you get the tomatoes”?
NG: “Over at Eastern Point, Chestertown and Rock Hall.”
Qt: “So the farmers would just bring their tomatoes down to the dock”?
NG: “In baskets. So we loaded the baskets on the boat and I’d take them to Baltimore. It was the (?) Gibbs
Packing Company that I run to. But I also run tomatoes on the other old boat that I run down in Virginia before
I come up here.”
Qt: “Any other type of freight that you carried on that boat”?
NG: “That one in Virginia, I carried everything, but the jib I never I did make a trip of wood from Annapolis
to (?) Ocean City, New Jersey. And I went down to Tappahannock, that’s on the Rhappahannock River, and
loaded wood and carried it to Sparrow’s Point.”
Qt: “What did they use that wood for, do you know”?
NG: “Cooling steel.”
Qt: “Cooling steel? Wow, that’s interesting. I never heard of doing that before. I want to ask about the
oystermen that you would buy the oysters from. Can you name some of them”?
NG: “Yeah. Well, there’s Capt. Avery’s family, Roxie, and Lymon (?), Jack, Ed - I don’t think he ever done
much oystering. Then Johnny Grinder, Charlie Bast, Capt. Yoder(?) Turner, I know you can’t remember him.”
Qt: “No, I don’t know him.”
NG: “And I… the Lintons…there were two brothers. I can’t remember their names.”
Qt: “Was Jacie one of them?
NG: “J.J. was the son of one of them.”
Qt: “Oh, OK.”
NG: “And (?) Bart Arthur (?), Hammond (?) Davis, Capt. Will Crandall, Lerch Crandall, Capt. George Proctor
and all the Proctors.”
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�Qt: “Who would you say was the biggest character? Who would you have the most stories to tell?
NG: “[Laughing] That’s a good one!! [Laughing]
Qt: “I have a feeling I know who it would be”!
NG: “Yeah, I’m sure you do.”
Qt: “I’ve heard some pretty good stories about Capt. Charlie. Did you ever hear the story about Capt. Charlie
when her got caught by the crab when he dropped his pipe down in the bushel basket”?
[Capt. Shenton: “No! I never heard that one.”]
Qt: “You never heard that one? Did you ever hear it, Capt. Neal”?
NG: “No, but I know he put the bow over his head to keep the rain off him and he had to lay down in the bow
of the boat to ????? [laughing]
[Capt. Shenton: “Are you talking about Charlie Bast?”]
Qt: “Capt Charlie Bast! Well, my favorite story that Dad used to tell was Capt. Charlie had dropped his pipe
down in the bushel basket of crabs. So when he reached down to get the pipe, a crab grabbed him by the thumb.
So he’s trying to shake the crab off, and it won’t let go. So when he tried to get it off with this hand, it grabbed
this thumb. So he’s standing there with the crab from thumb to thumb. So, you know how he got it off? He bit
it in the face! [Laughing]
[Capt. Shenton: “With Charlie Bast, I would believe that!]
Qt: “Isn’t that great?
NG: “I would too!”
[Capt. Shenton: “So while we’re talking about him, the only thing that I can remember … the thing I remember
most about Charlie Bast was if you ever went hunting with him, you spent all the time looking for the game
warden instead of hunting for whatever game you were after. He would never buy a license…would never buy
the gunning license.”]
NG: “He had to hide his gun in the woods two or three times.”
Qt: “Do you have any stories about when the Bay would ice over?”
NG: “Yeah. Well you see, we had a couple of times when we were a long ways apart. Back in 1936, I was still
in Virginia and I was running oysters over here to Tillghman’s Island, and I experienced a lot of ice. And with
the (?) job (?) We got throwed up down (??) broker’s island (?). Any how, we … the Bay was full of ice, and
we come out in the Bay, you know, to look at it. It was all broke up. There was a little freight line running
from Baltimore to Norfolk, and one of his boats was coming down, and we stopped him and asked about the ice
up in the Bay, and he said ‘it’s just like it is right here’. [Laughing] And he could tell once you know it went
down below Slack (?) Point. So we come on up to Annapolis, you know, going around the big fields of ice. It
took us all day but you couldn’t jam her in that ice because she was a wooden boat.”
8
�Qt: “Well, if you woke up one morning, and the creek was iced in, what would you have to do”?
NG: “Well, if these little tong boats could get out, you’d put four or five men on the (?) stern out, let the bow
fill up, then they’d push on out. Make a lot of sea (?), break the ice up and push the ice out. But if it got the
next three or four days old, then they couldn’t get out.”
Qt: “I remember hearing about having to wait for a Coast Guard cutter to come in.”
NG: “Yeah, they sent one in the river, but they couldn’t do us no good in a place like this, because the Coast
Guard at that time were like ships. And after they got their little boat, then they’d come in and break it up.
They had plenty of power. They broke about six or eight inches of ice, no problem.”
Qt: “Did you ever do much fishing.”
NG: “No, not a whole lot.”
Qt: “Any crabbing”?
NG: “No I don’t think I ever done … no, I never done no crabbing up here “
Qt: “You don’t like crabs”?
NG: “No, I eat ‘em, but I don’t like ‘em!” [Laughing]
Qt: “Now when did you stop running the buy boat”?
NG: “Well, 19 years old.”
Qt: “That’s when you started”?
NG: “No. I started when I was 14. I left home when I was 14 and went on the road to buy a boat. One thing
led to another …”
Qt: “Well, when did you stop running ‘The Jo”?
NG: “It was the beginning of oyster season … because that’s when I had to go to work up there at the (?)
station. I .. You know, we got paid every two weeks, and at that time they were trying to get everybody to buy
bonds.”
Qt: “Buy bonds…savings bonds.”
NG: “Yeah, ‘cause I bought one every payday, every month or something and any how, when Levin Rogers
inherited Capt. Jimmy Apple’s property, he built a boat house and also his living quarters in one end. And we
bought that little house from him, and,oh, we owned … we bought it in the summer, I think, and we didn’t get
into there until, I believe we moved on Christmas Day, I mean Christmas Eve.”
Qt: “Do you know what year that was”?
[Capt. Shenton: “It had to be during the War.”]
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�NG: “It had to be… in the early ‘40’s.I can’t tell you whether it was ‘43 or ‘44 that we bought the house, and I
had saved enough bonds to make a down payment, which was about $700. We paid $4200 for the house, and
our taxes were $42.” [Laughing]
Qt: “42. Can you name some of your neighbors that lived near you on Parrish Creek”?
NG: “Oh. The Rogers Family, Capt. Bob, Capt. Jim Apple, and the Avery family, Mrs. Avery and Lester ??
And that was all it was to it, Capt. ??, but it wasn’t nobody living in the old Avery home. I guess you’ve been
down to the instrument company”?
Qt: “Yes.”
NG: Well that white house you see setting right across that little cove, that was the Avery home. Erwood
owned it at the time, and Capt. Frank Wilde (?) bought it for Norman, if you ever knew Norman. I don’t guess
you knew Jim and Jack?
Qt: “Wilde No.”
NG: “They were Capt. Frank’s sons. But they were old people, a lot of them was good people. I’ll tell you the
truth. They don’t come like that today.”
[Capt. Shenton: “Well let me say … tell a little story here. Capt. Neal hasn’t spoken much about his family.
But he has three sons and, of course, Capt. Neal has done a lot of mostly mechanical work the vital part of his
life, and all three of his boys are very good mechanics and diesel and gasoline engines. One boy, I think, is
teaching school down in Richmond, Virginia; he’s the oldest son. And the oldest boy is named Skipper, and I
imagine, Capt. Neal, Skipper’s what, about 55?”]
NG: “I think he’s 60.”
Qt: “What’s his real name”?
NG: “Wallace.”
[Capt. Shenton: “It’s Skipper and Goldie and Billy Jo. Well, when they were little kids, Capt. Neal had them in
the barbershop in Shady Side to get a haircut, and I happened to be there getting a haircut and the conversation
got to dogs. And I said ‘the only dog that I would ever have would be a Chesapeake Bay Retriever’. So when I
got my haircut and walked outside the barber shop, Capt. Neal’s oldest son, Skipper, was waiting for me. He
said, ‘Capt. Howard, my old dog is ‘gonna have puppies. If she has a Chesapeake Bay Retriever, you can have
her’. [Laughing]. So that shows you the spirit of the Neal family.”]
Qt: “That’s great.”
NG: “Amos had an old bird dog. It was red. What was it? I don’t remember what it was, you know whether it
was a retriever, or a pointer or what. But he liked Skipper. He’d come home and stay with Skipper three or
four days till Amos come after him.” Laughing
Qt: “Who was Amos”?
NG: “Amos Proctor. He lived down on the Bay Shore . Old dog, he’d hang his head and get in the truck with
Amos. Next day he’d run out there to play with him I think they all had dogs.”
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�Qt: “All the boys”?
NG: “Uh huh. They … and Cal Lumpkin,,,he was my wife’s brother. Cal was his son And he had a way
with dogs and animals, too, but Lois Halleck, she was at that time, she raised dogs, little dogs, and she gave Cal
and Wanda one. I don’t know whether Billy Joe or Goldie that she gave the other dog to; but when they were
puppies, they played together. Cal’s mother and father lived in the house down in the garage I had right down
at the end of the road. And you know they went from one yard to the other. And that’s the way it was, and
them two dogs stayed together until they died.”
Qt: “Do you remember the ‘Emma Giles’?
NG: “Well I used to see her when I’d go to Baltimore, but when they cut her down and made a barge out of
her, I used to see her any time, because they’d run lumber out of North Carolina. They had a little tow boat.”
Qt: “I didn’t know that ‘s what they did to the ‘Emma Giles’.
[Capt. Shenton: “Yeah, the last time I saw the ‘Emma Giles’, she was … she came into West River under tow,
she’d been cut down and loaded with lumber from North Carolina and on top of the pile of lumber was a right
good-size skiff that they had brought in here for Capt. Ed Leatherbury’s son. And the old ‘Emma Giles’ …
they’d tied this barge up with a skiff on it to the old Shady Side Steamboat wharf where I had seen her come
in, you know, when she was really running passengers and all, and it was really kind of a let down because she
didn’t look like the ‘Emma Giles’. But anyway, they delivered that skiff to Capt. Ed Leatherbury’s son, and
that was the last time I saw the ‘Emma Giles’.
NG: “The ‘Emma Giles’ had steel framing and a wood hull, so the last picture I saw was when she was
wrecked.”
Qt: “Wrecked”?
NG: “Yeah, she was wore out…”
[Capt. Shenton: “The ‘Emma Giles’ had stopped running the passenger service and freight service in West
River before Capt. Neal got here, I think it was around ‘32 when she stopped running in here, but it was really a
let down to see her loaded with lumber and…”]
NG:
“So many of them (??) Howard, they cut down. Now the pride of the lower Bay was in the tow (??)
[Capt. Shenton: “But I’m sure Capt. Neal saw her in Baltimore harbor when she was in her prime.”]
NG: “Yeah, when you see them old pictures of Bodeins they had the old ‘Louise’ and the ‘Dreamland’ and the
‘Emma Giles’ and there was one run over Rock Hall, I mean Tolchester, but I can’t remember her name. And
there were boats that would run … a ferry, from Baltimore to Love Point. We’d call her ‘Smokey Joe’,
because she always had a black smoke coming out of both stacks.” [Laughing]
[Capt. Shenton: “Ask Capt. Neal about the ferry boats to Annapolis.]
NG: “Well see, when I first come here they come into Annapolis, you see, and then they moved to Sandy Point
but the year .. See I come up the year after…it must’ve been ’36 because, you know, when I was around
Annapolis…so many people would move up to Annapolis so they could get out. And that year before I come
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�here, that old ‘John M. Zephyr (?) that run … [phone rings loudly in background] … and they… that run and
?? the skipper, ??he’d back right into the slip with that ? Zephyr ? and then let the tongers out, and that went on
until the ice got rotted, ?? then there wasn’t nothing they could do, but he’d still break that channel.”
[Capt. Shenton: To understand what he’s saying, Ginger, when everything got frozen in down here they had no
real ice breakers, most of the oystermen would go to Annapolis and work out of Annapolis; and the reason is
the way the Severn River is located, almost east and west maybe a little bit more south of east, and the ice
wouldn’t … it would remain open. In other words the northeast wind would keep the ice out of the Severn
River. So the boys would go up there so they could get out and oyster – on Hacketts, on Baleys (??) on Tolly’s
Lumps, up there where the Bay Bridge is now. In addition to that, the ferry boats would run in and out of there
to … they were running then over (?) to Claiborne (?). And they’d keep a path open so the tongers could
always get in and out. I don’t know what the schedule was, but they ran quite often during the day, andso it was
really a benefit to the watermen to have the ferry boats running out of Annapolis.”
NG: “Well Captain, what old steamboat was it that they cut the top work off the bow and I don’t know whether
she’d run from Baltimore or whether she run to Annapolis or not, but she used to run to Eastern Bay.”
[Capt. Shenton: “I don’t know which one that might be, Capt. Neal, but I know the watermen always thought
the ‘John Dennis’ was a real icebreaker, one of the ferry boats that ran out of Annapolis. She could really break
a lot of ice. Now ice is really very dangerous. You’re fooling with wooden boats in ice conditions, it’s very
dangerous.”]
Qt: “When I say the word, ‘Koontz’s’ does that mean anything to you”?
[Capt. Shenton: “It means something to me. [Laughing]
NG: “No, I can’t tell you ‘cause I ..know and the river and the Bay was full of them, and rip tides, you know,
would come down the Bay…” (??)
[Capt. Shenton: “No, she’s talking about oyster bar, Capt. Neal. She’s talking about ‘Koontz’. See the oyster
bars here and around West River.”
NG: “I’ve had good oysters.”
[Capt. Shenton: “They were good oysters.”]
NG:: “Capt. ?? Smith said he worked on all three schooners and ?? lumber out there.”
[Capt. Shenton: “Yeah, Koontz was a very good oyster bar.”]
Qt: “I heard that you would catch brick when you would oyster out there.”
NG: “Catch what”?
Qt: “Bricks…from houses that used to be…”
NG: “I never, I don’t think I ever caught anything. I’ve got one stone that’s got a hole in it. I’ve still got that”
[Laughing]
Qt: “Oh, no kidding. Did you ever hear about catching bricks out there”? [to Capt. Shenton]
12
�[Capt. Shenton: “No, they wouldn’t catch bricks out there. The only bricks they might catch out there are
bricks that had fallen off a barge that was hauling bricks up and down the Bay. In relation to that, the Thomas
Lumber Company that was located up here in South Creek, that’s how they got their bricks here back in the old
days. They’d come in by barge and they would bring ‘em on up as far as they could in West River, then they
would link them off and take them to the lumber yard and it’s possible that they, some of the bricks, in bad
weather, they could’ve fallen and rolled off the barge.”
Qt: “Now how would that oyster ground have gotten a name like that?”
[Capt. Shenton: “I haven’t any idea. See, they got ‘Wild Ground’, which is part of ‘Three Sisters Oyster Bar’,
and Koontz also is part of ‘Three Sisters Oyster Bar’, but Koontz’s is on the north end and ‘Wire Ground’ is on
the south end. And I never knew, and I still don’t know today, whether it’s ‘W-I-L-D Ground’ or whether it’s
‘W-I-R-E Ground’, and it’s the way I’ve always heard it. I thought it was ‘Wire Ground’, but that’s the local
name for it, but it’s really … the technical name is ‘Three Sisters Oyster Bar’.]
Qt: “And where’s that located”?
[Capt. Shenton: “That’s right off Cedarhurst. ‘Wild Ground’ would be off Cedarhurst, and ‘Three Sisters
Oyster Bar’ … Here are the bars that are in that area: You have ‘Wire Ground’, then you come on up and you
have the edge of deep water, and then you have ‘Koontz’, then you come on in and you got … when you come
in West River, you’ve got Sutton Island, then you got ‘Middle Ground’, then you have ‘Shocklers’(?), then
they had what they call ‘Fer Bar’, which was down in the slew right off Idlewilde, right off Curtis Point. And
so those were the names of the oyster bars, but on the chart all of those bars are known as ‘Three Sisters.”]
NG: “They had to have a name and … but I thought the ‘Wild Ground got the name from the oysters that were
in deep water that they couldn’t catch … shaft … they just grew like there, all kinds of shapes …?? shale
??…after they got … till they broke ‘em up, thinned ‘em out, why then they started to grow good shape.”
[Capt. Shenton: ‘So then that would be ‘W-I-L-D’, but they pronounced it … almost pronounced it ‘W-I-R-E’
ground.”]
Qt: “Well there’s a special accent around here among the oystermen, that’s for sure.”
NG: “Yeah. That’s right”!
Qt: “Now what did you do during the summer if you ran a buy boat for oysters, is that when you did the
tomatoes”?
NG: “In the summer, I’d run tomatoes.”
Qt: “OK. So that’s what kept you busy”?
NG: “When I was able to do it … I … it looks like every 4th of July, I had to be up the road. I ran wheat and
corn from down on the Rhappahannock to Baltimore, and I used to make a few trips to Richmond. But then
you got … well, I come up here in the summertime, it’d take a long time, though, to haul one of them wooden
boats, you know, you got freight and wait (?) …and the railway and all that stuff.”
Qt: “Now when you first moved up here, can you kind of describe for me what you would see when you drove
into town, into Shady Side, when you like going to your house”?
13
�NG: “Well, the colored people lived on this side of Thomas Lumber Company … a few houses, and,…well,”
[pause] .
Qt: “Did we have a fire department back then, you know, was there a building”?
NG: “No, that was made way late when they formed the volunteer fire department.”
Qt: “Well, Centennary Church was there, right”?
NG: “Oh, yeah, Rev. ? Culp was the preacher…there wasn’t nothing on the side of the road before … nothing
but Leatherbury’s Store, was it”?
[Capt. Shenton: “No, not much, no. Wasn’t anything there where the post office is now.”]
NG: “ ..colored people started after ??? store.”
Qt: “Crandall’s Store”?
NG: “No,
[Capt. Shenton: “Crandall’s store wasn’t there then.”]
NG: “Oh, heck! What’s in there? Some kind of framing?”
Qt: “Right, right - there’s a frame store there, yes.”
NG: “.. Cedarhurst Road, from there on out.”
Qt: “Was ‘Jim’s Country Kitchen’ on the other side of the road”?
NG: “No, not then no.”
Qt: “Was there nothing there at the time”?
NG: “Ada built that …. Ada Hall, but I can’t …”
Qt: “Wasn’t she the local beautician, or something”?
NG: “And they had a restaurant, too, and then Woody Avery built his house there, then come on down and then
… did Irving Kirschner build his garage before Renno”?
[Capt. Shenton: “No, I don’t think so. It was around the same time, Capt. Neal. It wasn’t too much difference,
I think. That’s where the gasoline station is now.”]
Qt: “The one right next door”?
[Capt. Shenton: “Yeah, I think so.”]
14
�NG: “And after Renno was Christolph,(?) and that’s his son that built the house right next to me … his
grandson.”
Qt: “No kidding? What’s his name”?
NG: “His name is Alan … Alan Christolph.”
Qt: “He lives here now? Because Alan was my age.”
NG: “Yeah. His house is right next to mine.”
Qt: “Didn’t know that.”
NG: “And there’s a lady in the rambler ?… They tell me she comes from Kansas…but I’ve only met her; I
haven’t had a chance to talk to her.”
Qt: “And then, what would you see when you turned the corner, to go … like where the Moose Lodge is now?
What would you see when you turned that corner”?
NG: “Oh, Lola ? Leatherbury’s house, and St. John’s Church, and between the ? store ? there .. Miss Marion
Allison’s place and had a post office in that, and then was Capt. Willie Crandall, and that store was there. Capt.
Willie used to have a store …a little grocery store, but that was there when I come here.”
Qt: “What’s there now”?
NG: “Nothing, but the old house is a wreck.”
Qt: “Oh, ok, where Bowen’s used to live”?
NG: “Uh huh”
Qt: “Right across from the Nowell’s house”?
NG: “Yeah…”
Qt: “Or Donald’s house…Sheckell’s?
NG: “It’s directly in front of Carrier’s (?)”
Qt: “Right.”
NG: “Yeah. Miss Lucy/Usey ? told me one time that that store, educated them two children. Went in ?? and
then. Did Murray buy that store building, because …”?
[Capt. Shenton: “I think they did. I think that they bought the building and they moved it down next to Shady
Side Market, and I think it’s an apartment .... I think Richey lived in there for a while.”]
Qt: “Oh, right next door to Shady Side Market”?
[Capt. Shenton: “Yeah. I think it’s part of ? Willie Crandall and Miss Usey ‘s store?]
15
�Qt: “Ok, J. Paulis (?) owns that now.”
[Capt. Shenton: “Yeah.”]
NG: “Paulis (?) owns it all, and I think he bought the lot where Miss Mary’s old store was; seems to me
somebody told me that.”
Qt: “Yeah, that’s been nothing for a long time, that big corner there.”
NG: “Yes. There was ? Nellie Jane’s house, and Waley’s old house and that, of course was on ? north ??
Road.”
Qt: “Waley ? Wilby”?
NG: “No, Waley Crowner …
[Capt. Shenton: “Waley Crandall.”]
Qt: “Oh, ok, I didn’t know him.”
NG: “No, he was a colored fella; no, he’s been gone a long time.”
Qt: “And what was down Atwell Road, where you lived.”
NG: “Well, where the school house is now was a Waley ?, the colored fellow, he was farming that lot when I
come here, and ?? Oscar ? on the other side of the road?]
[Capt. Shenton: “Yeah, he owns over there at … and he also owned a lot down on the shore there, I think …”]
NG: “ Yeah. That’s that point of land over there.”
[Capt. Shenton: “Parrish Creek”]
NG: “I don’t remember who owns it just now because a man bought it, I guess more than a year ago, and he
had, after he bought it, he had a stroke, and now it’s for sale again. So I don’t really know.”
Qt: “And this is down Atwell Road? Straight down or down towards where you are”?
NG: “You see the gate, or the driveway come right out to Atwell Road right on the corner and Avery Road was
next to it with a ditch between ‘em. But now, after this man bought it and they sold them two lots out on that
corner there, why they moved the driveway around to where the Avery Road comes right and goes to Hopkins
Cove, and so I guess every week somebody stopped by my house looking for that number. Any where the four
houses, now they got to put in a 10,000 gallon tank, and that 10,000 gallon tank is right in that old driveway.”
Qt: “Where did your children go to school”?
NG: “Silver. ? Now, Skipper, he went right out here to Shady Side School.”
Qt: “Did he? And who was his teacher”?
16
�NG: “Oh, Ms. Wickworth ?? I don’t know what it is. ?? I believe Ms. Nowell taught Skipper. Now whether
Goldie went there or not I don’t know.”
[Capt Shenton: “She might have retired. Ms. ? she might have retired by that time.]
NG: “When did she retire from the post office”?
[Capt. Shenton: “Who’s that, mother”?]
NG: “Uh huh.”
[Capt. Shenton: “Good golly, it was in the ‘50’s…it was in the ‘50’s…]
NG: “Was she still in that old building down there”?
[Capt. Shenton: “Mother and Dad were still living in the old hotel when the old post office caught on fire, and
…]
Qt: “Where was that post office”?
[Capt. Shenton: “It was right across the road from the hotel.”]
Qt: “What they call Miss Mary Nowell’s”?
[Capt. Shenton: “Yeah.”]
NG: “I first two years I was here they burned down the polling houses [laughing] if the election didn’t go
through.” [laughing]
Qt: “Surprised they didn’t do that this year.” [Laughing]
NG: “Do you remember that Capt. Howard”?
[Capt. Shenton: “No, I don’t remember. Maybe I wasn’t here then. Maybe I was away in World War II. I
don’t know.”]
NG: “That polling house was right across the road from the lumber company, right on that corner.”
[Capt. Shenton: “I remember that poll. That’s where I registered for the draft.”]
NG: “It was a polling house up there after you pass where you go in to Smithsonian.”
Qt: “Isn’t that called ‘Polling House Road’”?
NG: “Yeah, well, it’s on the left side there. Well, they burned that down the next year.”
Qt: “Well, any other special stories you want to tell us?
NG: “I don’t know.”
17
�Qt: “Well, I guess you must’ve loved Shady Side ‘cause you sure have stayed here”?
NG: “Yeah.”
Qt: “And two of your children live here now, right”?
NG: “Yeah. And Cal Lumpkin, he’s still here.”
Qt: “And they came up from Virginia also”?
NG: “Uh huh, yeah. If Janey was sick, Bobby ? ? looked out for the kids. Chris had two, Cal and …..”
[Tape abruptly ends.]
18
�
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Oral Histories - Voices of Shady Side
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Captain Avery Museum
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Text
ORAL HISTORY
Busch, Jane
Captain Avery Museum
2000.018
Interviewee:
Jane Busch
Date of Interview: 4 November 2000
Interviewer:
Ginger N. Corson
Transcribed by:
Donna Williams (January 2006)
Edited by Mavis Daly and Carol Anderson (February 2006)
[The interview appears to have begun; the first few words are missing. Microphone may
not be close enough to subject.]
GC: “…at the home of Jane Busch, and we’re going to be asking her some questions
about her early days in Shady Side, specifically because her parents owned the Yendell
cottages off of East West Shady Side Road down in West Shady Side. So thank you for
having us here today.”
JB: “Well, I am glad you came [laughing] took you a long time to get here. You said
you were a friend of Linda’s. I remember that…I remember that…took you a long time
to see me…”
GC: “30 years…that’s right. I was a couple doors over a lot, but I never came over here.
I think you must’ve always been over there?” [Laughs.]
JB: “No, I was here from the time…shortly before I was six (6) years old.”
GC: “No kidding? OK.”
JB: “But we lived in Washington…Spring Road…Northwest Washington, and we lived
next door to the Park family, who are my neighbors here on the west side of this house.
Mr. William Park came down in 1918…no, that’s when the family moved to Washington
from New York.”
1
�GC: “Your family?”
JB: “My family…in 1921 Mr. Park was down here and purchased the lots Doris Cole
lives on, right next door here, but that was before she was born; but the mother and father
and three brothers and a sister were down here. But when Mr. William Park bought the
property, he came home from Washington – Spring Road again…right next door to us,
and said to my Dad ‘Why don’t you come down and see the property and buy the lots
next to me?’ Well, they had enjoyed one another’s company a great deal, and they used
to have picnics at Rock Creek Park in Washington. So, the following week my Dad and
the family came down here and Dad bought five lots…three here, and two the other side
of the Salem Avery. Mr. Park said ‘When the men finish building my house, you want
them to start on yours?’ And my father said ‘Yes, that would be fine.’ So when we
came down it seemed like they put the two houses awfully close together, but I
guess after being next door neighbors in a row house…it was plenty far apart.
[Laughing]…[slight pause].
So when we would start out from Washington, we would have to go down through
Benning Road, north east, and out on Rt. 4; and when you get down to the Patuxent River
Bridge, I remember the big old Buick touring car…the wheels slowing down, and it
would jerk you because you were riding in the thick gravel. So it was slow progress.”
GC: “So, the bridge was made of gravel?”
JB: “No. On the east side of the road.”
GC: “Oh, once you hit the east side?”
JB: “On the east side of the river. Umm hmm.. It was gravel; and now and then, you’d
run into just a dirt road… you might see a horse and wagon come along and very few
cars. So they built this house in 1921, and my mother and my aunt…her sister…they
lived together with us…decided that they would stay here in the summer time when
school was out…my cousin was older than I was…. I’m stuck.” [Slight pause.]
GC: “Now who all who would be here…your aunt, your mother, your sister?”
JB: “No, I didn’t have a sister…I had a cousin… I had one brother…he was a little fella.
He was only …he was born 1919 and … I’m just lost now”…[pause].
GC: “Well, let’s talk about when you were born.”
JB: “Oh well, I came from New York.”
GC: “What town?”
JB: “Mt. Kisco up in Westchester County.”
2
�GC: “Ok, and you were born what day?”
JB: “July, the18th, 1915.”
GC: “And you mentioned your Mom was born in New York also? Rye?”
JB: “Yes, right in Rye, New York, and both of her parents and all of her brothers and
sisters were born in England. The first one was born here. My grandfather came here
two times. He came here as a young fellow and was a stone mason up in New York; but
my mother was their 11th child, but only 8 lived…there were some earlier ones that died.”
GC: “What was your mother’s name…her maiden name?”…
JB: “Jenny Thomas…Jenny Thomas.”
GC: “And your father’s name?”
JB: “Fred Yendell and was so…back in 1921…going back again…they decided that
they’d build some cottages because people would be happy to rent them. My mother said
‘Well, don’t put them too close together…you can’t put that many on it.’ He said ‘People
aren’t going all that way to cut grass.’ He said ‘What they want to do is to fish and enjoy
the water and go crabbing.’ So he said, ‘the houses are all right close together.’”
GC: “That was a good theory.”
JB: “Yes. I’m not using my notes.”
GC: “Well let me ask you another question about your father. Where was he born?”
JB: “In Devon, England. And my mother’s people were from Penzance, and so, she
always liked being near the water because the house that her father built over there …
although she never lived in it. She… I had to tell you that. She…they were always
around the water. So when my Dad came to this country, he bought lots out on Montauk
Point on Long Island, right out at the very end But when he moved to Washington, he
came here…liked the water on the Bay. He just said he wouldn’t pay those taxes any
more and he just dropped that entirely. Didn’t sell them …didn’t try to sell them…just
didn’t pay the taxes, and bought this property down here.”
GC: “Maybe you still own it. [Laughing.] Maybe nobody figured that out.”
JB: “No! I have too many taxes to pay now. Catching up.”
GC: “So your family … what brought them to D.C. from New York?”
JB: ”Well, my father’s brother was going to work at the Capitol transit in Washington
…the streetcar line, and he said ‘So why don’t you sell your drug store and buy one down
in Washington?’ So they did…that’s what they did. And that’s how it was before we
bought the house next door to the Park family, and that’s how we landed down here.”
3
�GC: “And you did buy a drug store?”
JB: “Yes.”
GC: “And was that on Spring Road also?”
JB: “No, no that was a residential area, and the drug store was…we were in Northwest
Washington near… just north of 14th and Park Road where the Arcade Market and all the
… a lot of shopping stores…attractive area at that time, and …I have trouble when you’re
asking me questions…they throw me off.”
GC: “I’m sorry.”
JB: “That’s all right! I know you want to know. See, I’ve lost where I am.”
GC: “You don’t know an address, for instance, where your father’s drug store was?”
JB: “Oh, yes! That was in Northeast Washington, when the flu epidemic was going on
and he was afraid … he didn’t want to shut the doors at night because so many people
were looking for prescriptions. But that’s getting away from Shady Side.”
GC: “Well, I just want to establish who you are first.”
JB: “Well, most people know I’m that old gal that had so many kids in church. I get up
in church and say…they say: ‘Have you got anything to be happy about?’, and I say ‘I
do.’ And I stand up and I say ‘I have a new Great Granddaughter.’ And then I tell whose
child, whose grandparents or something, and I’ll sit down; and then one of the fellows
that’s leading the service will say ‘Jane, get up and tell them what number it is.’ I stand
up and say ‘Number 14 – great grandchild’ and I’ve got another one now and more
coming, I’m sure. My mother always said ‘We never run out of children.’
GC: “How many grand children do you have?”
JB: “Seven.”
GC: “And how many children do you have?”
JB: “Two. Did I say what can happen? You have two children, and the next thing
you’ve got 15 great-grandchildren.”
GC: “There you go.”
JB: “Plus a few step-grandchildren, too. I count them.”
4
�GC: “How many of them live in Shady Side?”
JB: “None of them right here in Shady Side. Carol’s son, Bill, lives down on Mimosa
Cove Road…down Churchton Deale Road…it’s down that way. He has two boys.”
GC: “But both of your children do have one of the original cottages?”
JB: “Yes, yes. Three were built. When that one next to me…my aunt and uncle got it
from my Dad and he only charged them $2,000 for the cottage and the land. And then
the next one, my son has…he bought it from his widowed grandmother … my mother.
And Carol and Brent have the one next to the Salem Avery, and they also paid just a
small amount to my mother.”
GC: “And how about the cottages on the other side?”
JB: “Well, on the east side of the Salem Avery, the first house belongs to Ray Johnson,
but that one…shucks the name has just slipped me, and I could tell you any other time
who owned that building. And the odd thing… that house, this one and Doris Cole’s
house were all built on the same plan by the same builders. And it just happened they all
seemed to think it was a pretty good plan, now 70 years later they’ve changed quite a bit.
And the two lots beyond Ray Johnson were the two lots that my Dad bought, and the first
one Mr. Tucker has [now]; and then the next one was Stella Spicknell’s house…and I
don’t know who has it right now. And beyond that there was a doctor, and his name was
Frisco and he had a little daughter, and I went down there one day and she had a pet
monkey that would … she’d give it half of an orange, and he would eat the fruit and turn
it inside out and put it on his head.”
GC: [Laughing.] “That’s funny.”
JB: “I thought that was pretty cute.”
GC: “That is cute.” [Slight break or pause in interview process.] …
JB: “My first husband was Paul Hawkins from Washington, and I married him in 1936
… we had two nice children, and seemed like he had an awful hard time settling down, or
something, and after 23 years, I decided it was time to look out for myself and get a job.
And then I did that, and I worked for about 8 years, and then I worked for ?? photoGrammatry?, which was government contract working on manuals for training pilots and
boys going into mapping and that sort of thing for the service. Then in ’61 I married Rit,
and I never dreamed that I was marrying somebody who knew how to do almost
everything. He could cane chairs. He could repair clocks. He built the hutch in the
dining room and the cute little chest of drawers that matched my bedroom set…he made
that for me. And I thought I was so lucky and I really was…I knew I was, but he used to
say the same thing to me. He’d say ‘I don’t know how I got so lucky.’ So, you see, it
was a good marriage, and people noticed it. When he got sick, I’d always tuck him in at
night, and I’d ask him if his feet were warm enough, if his pillow was right. And we just
5
�had a lot of love for one another. And he’s been dead about 15 months now, but there’s a
lot of people in Shady Side who remember him. He worked at the ‘Salem Avery’. He
worked at the church; and if people had a problem, they very often would ask him if he
could tell them how to fix it. Sometimes it ended up he’d fix it instead, but that was Rit,
and that was what he wanted to do.”
GC: “Sure. Did you meet him at that work place?”
JB: “No, I didn’t. He lived in Connecticut, and he was married to a cousin of mine, and
they had two sons. Both are my boys now and have been almost 40 years, and I’m in
contact…close contact with them…and it’s a pleasure, and… [Slight pause.] it was a big
change for me…married a second time. And the younger son lived with us, and one time
he left his shoes by the fireplace, and Rit said ‘Donald, take those shoes up and put them
in your bedroom.’ He said ‘Don’t leave them here in the living room like that.’ After the
boy had gone upstairs, I said to Rit, ‘Don’t talk to him like that’…I said ‘You know, his
leaving the shoes in front of the fireplace makes him feel more at home because that’s
exactly the way Jack would have done, and he’s gotten married now, and so Don makes
me feel at home.’”
Well, getting back to Shady Side again, there was a…I don’t know that you needed all of
this about cooking on a kerosene burner stove. It had an oven that sat over top of two of
the three burners, and that’s the way my mother did her baking.”
GC: “Was that in this house?”
JB: “Yes, in this house. And then we had a manual operated pump in the kitchen and the
icebox. And in the summer, they would deliver ice for you, and they gave a lot of the
schoolboys a job during the summer and Dick Kirchner was one of them. And when I
moved down here he said - to order you ‘a round’, I think it was ’73 – he said ‘I
remember you when they used to deliver ice to your mother.’ And he had a very nice
wife. I was fond of her. One of my first friends when I came down here.”
GC: “Marguerite?”
JB: “Marguerite Kirchner. She sang in the choir in the church.”
GC: “And was her maiden name Griner?”
JB: “No. She was a Trott. And she was Ruby Trott Steven’s sister.”
GC: “Oh, OK – I didn’t know that.”
JB: “Well I didn’t tell you about Nowell’s store. It was a general store, and you could
buy lamps, or crab nets, shoes, paint, tobacco, candy – almost anything you might want.
You didn’t always have much choice. But you could probably manage – get along 6
�people did. In the middle of the room, the watermen would gather, and I would be in
there with my mother, so I would see these men sitting around and they would be
laughing and telling the news and laughing at the daily jokes, and warming their cold
buns from being out on the water. And they were right there by the post office, too – it
was right in back of it. It seemed like it was a great gathering place. In the summer they
had dances on the long, screened-in porch on the side; and my cousin, who was six years
older than I - she went there quite often to dance. And the porch was lit up. I don’t know
now, but there must’ve been electricity, but they had lanterns strewn, so I think they were
paper lanterns with a light bulb inside of it to light - light bulbs weren’t available electricity wasn’t - until about 1929. But it used to be quite a job keeping all the
kerosene lamps clean, too. I have so many things, and you can’t think of it all….oh, there
was … where Jenny LeFevre lives, there was a store, and it had belonged to Cora Hartge,
and it was another general store. And one day when my mother and I were down there at
the store, Mrs. Sally Ford came out of the store and put her package in her little Model T
Ford. And my mother said to her, ‘You’ve had a lot of good service out of that little car.’
And Sally said ‘Indeed so, Mrs. Yendell,’ she said: ‘When I can’t get gasoline, I just use
a little kerosene in it,’ and she said ‘It runs.’ [Laughing.]
So Mrs. Ford lived in the nice house over here … faces out to Parrish Creek She sold
milk there, so the Park and the Yendell children would go through the woods and then
across the meadow where the cow was and buy milk from Mrs. Ford. She had it in jars in
a little springhouse that was on the Parrish Creek side of her house, and there was a
stream that ran through that little house; and she would have these quart jars setting down
cooling. So we would get our milk and then head on home. And my mother, being
anxious for my brother and I to get our quart of milk a day, thought that maybe we would
drink more if she’d make it into puddings or custards or something, because the cow in
the spring would eat the nice fresh green spring onions in the grass, and the flavor carried
right on through to the milk. So that’s the way Mother got the milk down.”
GC. “Onion pudding, huh?”
JB: “Yes.”
GC: “I have a question about the… Cora Hartge’s store. Did you know Cora Hartge at
all?”
JB: “Yes.”
GC: “Did you know anything about her?”
JB: “She was a widow. I think when we first came, her husband was there; but later my
mother knew that she had gone into an Eastern Star Home north of Baltimore; and I can
remember my mother at Christmas would buy a box of candy and send it to her because
she just wanted her to know she was thinking of her.”
7
�GC: “Oh, that’s nice. You don’t happen to know remember about what time she died do
you? What year?”
JB: “No, I really don’t. It was a long while back. There was the Hopkins Store, and that
was down on the Shady Side Road just before you came to the turn. There’s a big empty
space now; they’ve taken that building down. There was another store there.”
GC: “Is that what eventually was Brevneck’s?”
JB: “Wasn’t it Eddie’s when you were a little girl?”
GC: “Eddie Brevneck .. right.”
JB: “Right. I didn’t know that was his name! But it was Hopkins back in the ‘20’s.”
GC: “I remember how close it was to the road.”
JB: “Yes, it was.”
GC: “I was always afraid when we drove past, because it seemed like we were going to
hit somebody walking out of the store.”
JB: “That’s right.”
GC: “Now we had a lot of stores in Shady Side for being such a small town.”
JB: “That’s right, and then there was another one down West Shady Side, and that one
belonged to Bobby Owings and Barbara Owings; but it was his parents that had that
store.”
GC: “Really? No kidding?”
JB: “And it was in that little house that’s almost into the swamp there, right near the
shore.”
GC: “Right. I can’t believe that was a store. That house is so little.”
JB: “Yes, Uh huh.”
GC: “But it makes sense because there was no plumbing for a long time, other than
running water. And to this day when my kids don’t have time for a bath, I tell them to go
take a ‘Miss Winnie bath’, because Miss Winnie Owings owned that house, and she had
no shower or tub.” [Laughing.]
JB: “That’s right.”
8
�GC: “I did not know that was a store. That’s on West Shady Side Road, between Linton
Lane and Bass Lane? It’s more toward the end of Bass Lane?”
JB: “Yes, it is.” [Slight pause.]
GC: “How about…Sorry.” [Begins to ask a question, then stops.]
JB: “Way back the boats that you saw were not pleasure boats, they were work boats and
watermen. And sometimes I guess there were other kinds of tugboats and barges where
they would be moving something from one area to another. In fact, I think the first (?)
Centenary Church was brought across from Galesville. I think was in Owensville first,
and then they took it to Galesville and went across the river to bring it to Shady Side. But
I can remember riding around the West River with Mr. Park and his kids. And it seems
that we went to … it must’ve been to the Weems’ house because where Thomas’ lumber
is was ‘Thomas & Weems’ when we first came here.”
GC: “Were the Parks related to anybody further down here that you know of?”
JB: “No, only the two couples. They… There were some Park on that side… not the
mother’s side, but the father’s side. I think he had a sister who lived in Chicago. But I
don’t know. I should try to find out or let Carol…. There must be Thomas’s that are
related to me in this country, because so many Thomas boys came here from England.
But Carol is so busy with the other side of the family now that she’s not looking into that.
So excited …”
GC. “ (?)
JB: “Yes, because of the Civil War…that’s what she’s interested in, of course, because
her brother is, too.”
GC: “Sure. And it was the Parks that had two siblings that married two other siblings?”
JB: “Yes.”
GC: “OK, you want to tell us that story?”
JB: “Well, I thought I did.”
GC: “We weren’t on camera.”
JB: “Oh, well they lived … were next door neighbors at 1357 Spring Road … was
William Park and Margaret, and they had five children… three boys and then two girls.
Well, the younger brother, George Park, he got out of the service and came to Spring
Road and Margaret’s sister came from Scotland, and then the two of them were married.
So there were two brothers that married two sisters. Well, they were, I guess, there just a
short time of living with them, but they used to come down here to Shady Side real often,
9
�then their Uncle George and Richie’s Uncle George seemed like my Uncle George, too.
We were always together, all the kids, more than any one else unless somebody had
rented the cottage brought some children along. And with my mother and her sister, they
lived up in New York, and my grandmother was widowed quite young. It was a heat
wave in New York and horses dropped on the streets, and that would have been in 1896,
because it was the year my mother would’ve been six years old. My grandfather died
then of heat stroke, and my grandmother had to start renting rooms. Two of the men
were brothers: Will and Fred Yendell, and they married to two of Mrs. Thomas’ children
… the girls, my mother Jenny and her sister, Fanny. And there were others as well, but
another one married an Englishman, too, Laura married one from further north in
England. I should know the name but…you know when sometimes when you’re trying
to think of something, it just doesn’t come.” [Laughing.]
GC: “You’ll think of it tonight.” [Laughing.]
JB: “When I go to bed.” [Laughing.]
GC: “Right. Now were there many children on this point when you were growing up
that were around your age?”
JB: “No, and I guess because I didn’t go to school here, that makes a difference. If I
went to school down here, I would’ve known the Nieman children down the point.”
GC: “Sure. You were one of those summer people.”
JB: “Yes, that’s right.”
GC: “OK. “
JB: “I don’t know whether I’ve got anything else amongst my notes that I should tell you
about.”
GC: “Well, why don’t you just tell us and we’ll just judge that?”
JB: “All right. I didn’t tell you about the collie dog, did I?”
GC: “No.”
JB: “Well, Mrs. Ford had a collie dog, and he knew the sound of our cars. We would
come down the road. And he would run through the woods and be here waiting for us in
the backyard by the time the car got in.”
GC: “Oh that’s funny.”
10
�JB: “One time, my Dad was looking over the dog trying to take the ticks off of him, and
he ran his hand up around the dog’s neck, and there was a tight rope around it. It was a
wonder it wasn’t choking him. I think it soon would. It was on there so long, it was
imbedded into his flesh. So my Dad had a pocketknife, it had a narrow blade, and he
worked that and he finally was able to cut the rope from the dog’s neck. And then the
dog showed his gratitude. He was very happy to get that off. I’m sure he truly wouldn’t
have lived.”
GC: “Oh, bless his heart.”
JB: “ So he was mighty grateful that Dad was looking for ticks.” [Slight pause.] “Did I
tell you about the dog going up the ladder on the round rungs? My brother and his
cousin … my cousin, too …were tarring the roof, and the dog didn’t like it when the two
boys left him. So he decided to walk up the ladder. And he did. He got up on the roof,
and it had round rungs; it wasn’t a stepladder. He got up on the roof and stepped on some
tar, and he sailed off of the roof (boomp) right down on the ground, but he decided he
wasn’t going to try going up again.” [Laughing.]
GC: “Was that on this house?”
JB: “Yes.”
GC: “Wasn’t that same collie was it?”
JB: “No, it was our terrier called ‘Sport’. Well, then there was a man that rented the
cottage where Carol’s brick house is over there. His name was Gall??, Mr. Gall. And he
rented the garage. Did I tell you about that before? I told Mavis and George, I guess. He
rented a garage-type building I guess across from the Shady Side Market, and he had
movies in there.”
GC: “Right, I’ve heard that.”
JB: “And one night when we were there, they were showing ‘The Ten Commandments’;
and in one very serious part, the piano player was playing ‘Oh, You Little Blue-Eyed
Sally’, and he was giving… pounding it out…giving it all he could.” [Laughing.]
GC: “Well, I have a story to tell on my Mom about that place.”
JB: “You do?”
GC: “When she was a little girl, her parents rented the apartment up above, and while
people were in the movie, she used to drop pennies on their heads through the holes in the
cracks in the floor. One time she ran out of pennies, so she started throwing … dropping
kitchen knives on people’s heads.” [Laughing.] My Mom’s Dad played the guitar, and
sometimes he would be the entertainment for that.”
11
�JB: “You never know what kids are going to do.”
GC: “No, no, but I don’t think anybody got hurt. But it didn’t take long before somebody
came upstairs and stopped her.”
JB: “Found out what was going on.”
GC: “That’s right. Do you know how many years that was a movie theatre?”
JB: “No, I don’t because I moved to Cleveland part of the time. I lived up there for three
years and I just can’t recall. Another thing, you know, when you’re in school, you’re not
here all the time….And there were a lot of changes. I know my folks used to rent these
cottages for about $300, from Memorial Day until Labor Day. When times were pretty
good then. But then when the War came and the Depression, too, it affected the gasoline
and how much money a person had, so they didn’t rent well. They were rented, generally,
for shorter terms. If people could get enough gas to spend one week or two weeks, but
they didn’t have enough to commute.”
GC: “How about the ‘Emma Giles’?”
JB: “Oh, I remember the ‘Emma Giles’, yes.”
GC: “Did you ever go on board her?”
JB: “I don’t think so, but when I was very small I went somewheres. I don’t know what
…I don’t think it was the ‘Emma Giles’. I remember that one well, and seeing it going
along the river … back into the Galesville area.”
GC:
“But it was a different steamboat?”
JB: “I don’t think it was a steamboat. But I went, I think, to Annapolis, and it was from
a pier down here, kind of coming out of Parrish Creek and I think Gloria Shenton might
know more about that.”
GC: “They have a picture of that here. But I don’t know anything about a steamboat that
left out of there.”
JB: “Well I don’t know whether it was …probably some kind of a motor boat?”
GC: “Like a ferry?”
JB: “Not that big, I don’t think, but I just know…I just went on it once. And maybe it
didn’t make that much of an impression on me. I don’t know why I don’t remember.”
GC: “Maybe you were scared?”
12
�JB: “Maybe so. I was scared when I went to England.”
GC: “Oh?”
JB: “Yes, when I was seven, my Dad wanted to go over there. And my mother and my
brother…four of us went. And I can remember going from this little boat. It took us out
to the big ocean liner, and I looked to the left and I looked to the right, and I couldn’t see
and looked up, and it just looked like a big wall. I guess I was small and maybe kind of
timid, but it kind of frightened me. But we stayed over there from late fall until the
spring, so I didn’t go to school that year either. But that wasn’t too unusual. I got moved
around quite a lot, and it’s kind of hard on a child to move because they have different
methods of teaching, and even my handwriting… Sometimes they’d tell me to make it
slant the other way. Instead of slanting to the right, make it slant to the left And then one
teacher told me ‘No’, she said ‘don’t press so hard’, she said, ‘you’re writing too dark.’
Oh, gosh. And when it came to the grammar, I think I had been taught the first three
parts of grammar and the others had all eight in the next school, and you’re supposed to
know it all. So it does make it hard.”
GC: “Sure. And they’re still working on that today. It’s still not the same all over the
United States.”
JB: “It does affect the children a great deal.”
GC: “And you said you were six when your parents bought here?
JB: “Yes.”
GC: “How old were you when you moved here?”
JB: “Oh you mean for all year round?”
GC: “Yes.”
JB: “I must’ve been …born in 1915…I think it was in 73?…”
GC: “OK, so up until then you lived in DC?”
JB: “No, I moved from DC … In 1941, I moved to Silver Spring, and Carol and Jack
went to school out there in Silver Spring… stayed in that house.”
GC: “OK, so nobody’s ever gone to school around here from your family until…?”
JB: “Well now my stepson… he went to school here for a while…and my grandchildren.
Rit’s younger boy, Donald Busch, he went to high school down here for one year.”
GC: “At Southern?”
13
�JB: “Yes. He was 17, and one day Rit and I were riding along. Rit had picked me up at
my girlfriend’s, and it was before …shortly before we were married. We were riding
along on…now I can’t think of the name of the street. Anyway, it doesn’t matter, we
were riding and I looked over at a phone booth at the side of the road, and I said ‘Wait a
minute, Rit, that looks like Donald in there in the phone booth.’ And sure enough, he
was trying to find his father, and I saw him standing in the phone booth. And Rit says,
‘Well, what are you doing down here?’ And he said, ‘Well, I came down to live with
you.’ He said, ‘I wanted to stay here.’ So, he was supposed to be in school, of course,
but it seemed like he had broken up with his girlfriend because her grades were being
affected and her parents didn’t like it. So Donald came down to live with us.
And one time in Silver Spring, when Rit and I had bought a house on Baden Street in
Silver Spring, my next-door neighbor was talking to me over the fence and Donald came
out and kissed me good-bye, and said ‘I’ll see ya Ma…I’m going to school now.’ And
he went on down to Montgomery Blair High School, and my neighbor thought that he
was my son, and I considered that a compliment because he was my stepson. And the
day I married Rit, he said to me ‘This is something I’ve been wanting for a long time.’
And I thought that was real nice. And the other son seemed to be happy with his Dad
marrying, too, because they weren’t…they didn’t really have a happy home before. The
odd thing about it was their mother was my cousin; but she had problems, and I don’t
think it was her fault, I think it was from her childhood and her father.
I still have a good relationship with the two boys, and Rit’s brother thanked me for taking
such good care of his brother, because Rit wasn’t well for nine and a half years. But I
would much rather take care of him than lose him. Because I knew it was time for him to
go because each time he would have a stroke, it would affect his brain. But when we
moved down here, we never regretted it. I had asked him, I said, ‘Where do you think
you want to retire to? Do you want to stay in Silver Spring or do you want to come down
here to Shady Side?’ He said he’d rather be down here. ‘So would I’, I said…’The
beautiful Chesapeake Bay is a lot prettier than looking at another brick house next door.’
And so, we got to know more people when we moved down and became closer to a lot of
them we’d known for quite a number of years. But it’s the ‘Land of Pleasant Living’,
isn’t it?”
GC: “It sure is.”
JB: “And I’m glad I’m here, and I’m glad for the people that have come to Shady Side,
but I’m really hoping that it’s not going to keep growing and that Deale doesn’t turn out
to be like Edgewater. You get a big chain store, and then you get a lot more of them.
That’s what I’m afraid of. Then that means wider roads, more traffic, more schools,
more houses, and more problems for the Bay. What are we going to do? Lose our crabs,
and fish, and oysters? I’d hate to think of that happening; but when I was a little
girl, and you wanted a fish dinner, you’d just go out in a row boat way out in the Bay,
and you could catch a half a dozen in no time … pretty good-size ones. And you could
14
�catch a lot more than that if you wanted to stay a while. But they did share them with the
people, and they ate them.”
GC: “Did you crab much?”
JB: “Oh, I loved to crab, yes.”
GC: “And it used to be, you could just go around the shore with your basket and your
tennis shoes on…”
JB: “That’s right.”
GC: “But you can’t do that any more.”
JB: “No. Now they say the swans are bothering the Bay.”
GC: “Yes.
JB: “They’re eating the grasses that are growing, and it’s important to have the grass for
the young crabs and fish. I guess it puts oxygen into the water, too.”
GC: “Yes, I remember how much grass we used to have just as a kid, and we used to
clear an area right next to our docks so we could swim without getting tangled in it,
because it was a good 18” tall.”
JB: “There used to be spots here, and you could walk on a nice hard bottom, and you
could feel the ripple, something about the water movement, I guess, caused that; but I
could feel … and I could look down and I could see my feet. They were little then!
[Laughing.] And it was just so much fun…they played ball out there on the water.
Sometimes we’d swim under a boat and up the other side.”
GC: “Did you have boats here for your renters?”
JB: “No, they rented them around in the creek.”
GC: “OK. So there were technically no piers here? Or were there piers coming up?”
JB: “Very small piers, at first because they were working on the houses; but they didn’t
want to stay out of the water while they were building the house, so we had a little pier.”
GC: “Now were they local builders?”
JB: “Yes, they were local builders.”
GC: “You don’t happen to know their name, do you?”
15
�JB: “No, but I think that some of my family probably do, I don’t remember. But they
were more interested, I guess, in the construction of the houses. I do remember lying in
bed and there was no ceiling, and you could look right up at the underside of the roof.
We just had partitions in here for a while.” [Slight pause.]
“My mother was a wonderful woman.” [Another pause as Mrs. Busch puts on her
glasses to refer to her notes.] “Well, maybe I should start by saying that my
mother…she had a wonderful personality, and very outgoing. During the Depression,
Roosevelt sent a lot of girls to work here in the government. And Mother became
“Mom” to them, and sometimes she’d say, ‘I have to go down to Shady Side this
weekend. Now, if you want to bring your bedding along.’ She said, ‘We have to make
up your bed when you come home,’ she said, ‘because I won’t get around to it…but if
you want to do that’, she said, ‘you can come down with me.’ And she would feed them
and all. After my father died, well, during the War, they both went to Buffalo, New
York… worked in airplane factories, and Mother was awarded for her work on the
crankcases for planes.
When we moved after my Dad died, and I had married Rit, Mother, a widow, joined the
Congregational Church on Colesville Road in Silver Spring; and she was the head of the
senior group, and she seemed to be very popular. It was quite a big church. They had
three ministers there, and one was a woman minister. And she said ‘Jenny,’ she said ‘I
think you ought to have a little Bible lesson when you leave.’ My mother said, ‘No,’ she
said, ‘I don’t want to do that.’ She said ‘they can read their Bibles at home, and they
come to church. This is a social hour,’ and she said, ‘that’s what they want, just to get
out and meet people and have a little social hour with them.’ And the younger women
would make cakes, and they’d have tea or coffee, and Mother did that for quite a number
of years. And then when she came down here…cause she lived with me. She came
down here and she was into a fashion show that the church put on. She was 80 years old,
but she didn’t look it, she didn’t act it, either. But when she died, Rit had been good to
her, he always had, he said, ‘I loved that old lady.’ I thought it was real nice he felt that
way about her because she was his mother-in-law.”
GC: “Sure. Now what year did she die?”
JB: “’83…”
GC: “Now what year did she move down here with you?”
JB: “The same year we moved. Mama went with us. She lived with us in Silver Spring.
She always lived with me. She raised me, and then I told her she was my little girl now
when she got older. She was 93 when she died. But she had a stroke, and they called me
in the night and told me they had bad news for me. And I said, ‘No, you don’t have bad
news for me.’ I said ‘I was lucky to keep my mother till she was 93.’ I said ‘some
people don’t have their mother for all those years, and,’ I said, ‘she was a good mother
and a wonderful person.’ And I said ‘It was time for her to go, and she knew I loved
her.’ [Slight pause.]
16
�Yes. When I first came here it was, oh, by… I guess it was Mrs. Griffith. Her son was
Coates, and his wife was the daughter of the Larsen that lived over here where Terrence
Smith lives. They had four children – two girls and two boys, and when I was six or
seven, early on when I came down here, I remember seeing ‘Putzs’ … they called him.
His name was Paul Coates in the baby carriage on the porch over there at the Salem
Avery house. When…that’s the one…the same woman was Griffith, I think the name
was, that my Dad bought these lots from; and it was divided up and called ‘Allview
Manor’. From Doris’s house over to where Frisco was, a few lots beyond Ray Johnson,
all along the waterfront here and back to the road…East West Shady Side Road. That
area was called ‘Allview Manor’. Now whether it’s on my tax papers as ‘Allview
Manor’, but I don’t know whether it’s on the others down by Nieman Road…down that
way or not? So I’m not sure whether it was just named that…this parcel of land that was
being divided between the Bay and East West Shady Side Road, as I recall and from the
map I had, I should say, the plot shows Doris’s …Doris Cole’s, and then right on down
past the Salem Avery to Ray’s and those other three lots.”
GC: “Now I’ve never heard that term, ‘Allview Manor’.
JB: “You haven’t? Sometimes it’s right on the envelope I received from somewheres.”
GC: “No kidding?”
JB: “So some people know that’s the name of it any way.”
GC: “I mean I don’t even remember when East West Shady Side Road got its name,
because when I was coming up, it was just the road by the ball field.”
JB: “Yes, yes. Well, it had other names, but it seemed like, one time, the firemen
decided to change it for us.”
GC: “Sure.”
JB: “And they did. It’s Shady Side Road, and then there’s West Shady Side Road; but
this one runs east, off of west, so it’s East West Shady Side Road. Well, they’re
confusing. [Laughing – slight pause.] When the Coates people moved out, it was of the
Salem Avery … it was some Jewish people … very fine group. And most of them were
Masons don’t know where … Masons …quiet family. There …they had I think eight
bedrooms with half baths…eight of them … it was eight families… and it was called
‘The Masonic Hunting and Fishing Club’. And finally it seemed like they were losing
interest over the years … their young ones … and so many of the old ones had passed on;
and then they were able to sell it to the Shady Side Rural Heritage. And Mrs. Andrews
came to me, and she said, ‘Jane, would you object to having the historical society right
next like that … right close?’ I said, ‘Of course not. I think that it would be nice to have
them there.’ It always has been a quiet place, I mean … it’s not like a lot of young
people with their loud music would be having partying or something over there. And this
17
�whole area, you can’t believe it sometimes. You could almost hear a pin drop. It’s just
no sound at all …it’s so quiet. But when the… of course when the families come, and the
children, there’s a little excitement, but that’s what you want. You want the people to
enjoy it, this spot, and I think they do.
“Mrs. Andrews used to come here to see my mother, and I hoped she came to see me,
too. But Glorious and Howard would have dinner with Rit and I in the dining room, and
I fixed dinner plates and put them up at the round table in the front of the room, for Mrs.
Andrews and my mother, because both of them were hard of hearing, and one on one was
much better for them. And besides they had things that they were interested in and
wanted to talk about, and so it was very pleasant for them.”
GC: “Now you mentioned a cooking class?”
JB: “Yes, there was a cooking class in that little place where they had the … repairing
the lawn mowers on, what is it ‘Snug Harbor Road’? You know where I mean? Down
near where Joe Ferguson lived at one time?”
GC: “OK, where you turn in to the youth lodge?”
JB: “No, it’s on the other side of the road.”
GC: “OK.”
JB: “The same little place that … what else did they do there?”
GC: “Is that where it says ‘Sail Menders’?”
JB: “I guess it is. I don’t go down that way very often, so...”
GC: “Right across from St. John’s Church?”
JB: “I guess it is, about there.”
GC: “OK, there was a cooking class there?”
JB: “Yes, and that was before I was married, so it was in the early ‘30s. They had
several of them … consecutive weeks. And we went with Margaret Park, Mrs. William
Park, next door, and her daughter, Annabelle, and Mother and I, and enjoyed seeing the
folks and did a little baking down there and sometimes cooking. And the last day, we
had little ticket stubs, and they were going to have a prize. And who won it but Margaret
Park! She won a set of silver from them. And I got a recipe that had nothing to do with
the prizes, it was just a recipe that they had for biscuits. And I used to make those real
often, and I got pretty good at it, so I got lots of compliments. And I always told them
that the recipe came from Shady Side.”
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�GC: “What other things did they have you cook? Were they just normal things or were
they things that were...that you found to be different from things you might have…?”
JB: “Oh, you know, it’s only about 65 years ago, and I don’t remember what else they
were cooking.”
GC: “Oh. OK. They didn’t teach you how to make Hard Jelly Cakes or anything like
that?”
JB: “No, I was going to say, that Hard Jelly Cake, no, they didn’t … I’m sure they didn’t
teach us that. But I know they’re very popular here. Some of the girls are offering to
make them for you. I think they’re charging $20 for them; but after all it’s a lot of work
and good ingredients, and some local bakers.. I think Elaine Catterton is one, and
Marguerite’s daughter…?”
GC: “Brenda Kirchner.”
JB: “Yes, Brenda Kirchner. I think they’re making them this year. Maybe some other
girls, too, perhaps they’re making them for the church. I’ve had so much on my mind
lately, but I do recall that they’re making the cakes, and I’ll have to order one.”
[A man’s voice interjects something to Jane, and she replies as follows:]
“Centenary Church started out down, I think, I believe in, down in Owensville. They
moved … it was a little frame church they moved to Galesville and brought it across the
water and put it up to the present … where it burned, and the little church was underneath
the brick one. Rit, getting around like he did, he was under buildings, over them…
everywheres - good thing he was not too big because he got around real well. He was up
in between the two roofs of the old church and the one that … the outer one that
everybody could see. And he and Dick Higgins were taking a lot of shingles that had all
come loose off of the old roof, and they took them out. I don’t know, afterwards … it’s
all been burned now. They’re going to build another church, and I think that it’s
particularly important for the young people.”
[Male voice asks: “Well, was it bricked up before you came down here?]
JB: “Yes. I have that information over there by my fireplace in a booklet just when it
was that they bricked it, and I thought it was a very pretty little church. But it had …was
badly in need of repair in various places, and it was coming along just fine when it
burned. And four of my grandchildren were married there, and two … I think it was just
two babies christened there … Bill Anderson’s boys. But I felt bad when it burned. It’s
important for young people to have faith, because in your lifetime, there’s times when
something seems to bother you, whether it’s someone’s health or your own, or your
finances, or your love affairs, whatever. There’s problems that come with living, and if
you have faith, it does a lot to help you through.”
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�GC: “Jane can you come tell us who’s in this picture by pointing at them?” [Holding
black & white photograph in front of camera.]
JB: “Oh, that’s the Park family and the Yendell family that lived on Spring Road, and
where the two sisters married two brothers in both houses. And the lady on the left here
is Doris Cole’s mother, and her father is this man here. This is my Dad holding my little
brother, and here’s my mother, right in there. And this is my dad’s brother, Will, and his
wife, Fanny. And this is Jean Park, Margaret’s sister. And I think that the man that
must’ve taken the picture was the man that she was about to marry. This is my uncle by
marriage, my mother’s brother-in-law, and he had lost his wife the year before, and this is
their daughter… my cousin Stelle, Annabelle Park, the baby, Bud Park, Jane Yendell,
Richie Park and Bill Park.”
GC: “Did we get everybody?”
JB: “Yes, I think that’s everybody, and I think that was taken at Rock Creek Park where
the two families used to… [Another black and white photo is now being shown of a
house.] Not much to see [laughing]… plain little house with a porch on the front.”
GC: “Do you want to point out like where the kitchen was and that sort of thing?”
JB: “Kitchen’s on the back. This is the front porch.”
GC: “And what’s this? [Pointing to the right side of the house.]
JB: “Oh, that’s the bedroom. That’s where they go to bed.”
GC: “And…any other pictures in here…?”
JB: “This is the roof. Rit changed the roofline. He put a foundation under the house.
He dug a basement room. He took out all the interior walls and replaced them. He built
the cabinets in the kitchen and put them up, hung them up all by himself. I said, ‘Do you
want me to help you hold them up?’ He said, ‘No, I’m used to doing that myself.’ Hold
them up there and hammer!”
GC: “That’s incredible.” [Showing another photo of another house.]
JB: “It was. But you know he fell off the roof here and broke his back, yes. But that
same summer, after his back healed, he was out there water skiing.” [Laughing.
Attention turned to current photo.] “This is Carol’s house. Of course..? the porch? he
took it right down.”
GC: “It doesn’t look anything like that any more.”
JB: “No.”
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�GC: “So this is the house that’s immediately west of the Salem Avery House?”
JB: [Pointing to yet another photograph.] “Yes. And this is the one Jack has, see there’s
Carol’s and Jack’s, and this one was built just a little bit later the one in between.”
GC: “And these two houses are really close together?”
JB: “Yes, look how little the trees are, and they went way up. You would never believe.
[Looking at still another photo taken to the left of Jack’s house.] See this … then this
blue house that’s next door, McQueenies have now, was right in here. And that’s Jack’s
and that’s Carol’s. This booklet was put together for renting purposes.”
[Another photo of a group of people standing in the water is now being identified by
Jane.]
“And that’s more of my family relatives. My mother had twenty-five people for a week
the first summer they were here.”
GC: “So this is like your advertising brochure here.”
JB: “Yes.” [Explaining another photo of the water, etc.] “And there’s some steps going
down to the water, and that’s Mr. Park’s boat. Mr. William Park.” [Another photo is
shown.] “And that’s my mother here in the water with her hands up in the air.”
GC: “So somebody was out in the water taking this picture?”
JB: “Yes, my Dad, my uncle and my aunt.”
GC: “Glad you knew that.”
JB: “Yes.” [Another more scenic photo of shoreline is shown.] “And that’s just a
picture taken across the water … little bitty pier.” [Another photo of two people sitting
on a bench overlooking the water is shown.] “And that was the way they had made a
path around a flower bed in the middle at one of the cottages, and a couple of my uncles
sitting out there on a bench.” [Another photo is then shown.] “And I think that’s a boat
swing in that picture, too.”
GC: “A boat swing?”
JB: “Yes, you know. Well, that’s what they used to called it.”
GC: “Oh, where you sit across from each other.”
JB: “Yes.”
21
�[Camera now moves outside and shows exterior of Jane Busch’s house and the road just
outside the fence. It then moves out to the pier on the water and shows the waterfront
side of Jane’s house and the other current houses that face the water to the west of the
Salem Avery House.]
TAPE ENDS
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
22
�
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Oral Histories - Voices of Shady Side
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Captain Avery Museum
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2000018-Busch-Jane
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Text
ORAL HISTORY
Trott, Stanley
Captain Avery Museum
2000.014
Date of Interview: December 2, 2000
Interview of Stanley Trott
Interviewed by Ginger Corson
Transcribed by Donna Williams, January 17, 2004
[Tape opens into an interview, but the first few words are not present.]
Q. ...and we're going to talk to Captain Stanley about his memories of Shadyside. Welcome.
A. How do you do.
Q. Thank you for having us today.
A. Well I'm glad you're here.
Q. We practically re-arranged your house for this interview [Laughing.], but thank you very
much. Can you tell us your full name and when you were born?
A. James S. "Stanley" Trott, and I was born December 16, 1917.
Q. 1917. All right. And you were born here in Shadyside?
A. In Shadyside and been here all my life; Uncle Sam took me for three years; and outside of
that, I've come right back again.
Q. OK. Well, we'll talk about that in a minute. Who are your parents?
A. Ah, Esther Linton Trott. She was a Linton. And my Dad was Crandell Trott.
Q. Crandell Trott?
A. Ugh huh. He was in the Crandell family. At that time, I think, was mostly all Crandells
around here; maybe one or two more; that was all that was around here then. He was in that.
Q. OK. And which street were you born on?
A. Which street? Linton Street now. In those days, didn't have no name, nothing but a little
cow path running through the bushes, go to the next house.
�[Type text]
Q. And it's still a dirt road, isn't it?
A. No, they got black top on it now - yeah, gettin' up in this world now. [Laughing.]
2
Q. OK. Now Miss Esther was one of the people I wanted to ask you about. I heard that she
was one of the fastest crab pickers in the world?
A. Well, she could pick it alright cause she used to...she started with her father, had a crab
house. And I think her and her sister, Eugie Crandell, and I think she told me they started
when they was 12 years old pickin' crabs, and she should know how to. Cause she lived to be
93 and I know she picked, well, 87 or 88, all her life. She was fast though.
Q. What was her father's name?
A. Jacob Linton.
Q. Was he the one they called Captain Jakey?
A. No, Capt. Jakey is the one that lives there. In other words, Capt. Jakey Linton's son; he
was a junior.
Q. Oh, OK. Alright. And the other person I wanted to ask you about was Capt. Packard
Trott.
A. Capt. Packard - he was my uncle. He was, I don't know, he was the name of Shadyside.
Everybody knew him; and that man, to me, I remember when he got sick, and I went up to
see him, and he was in bed four years, and I don't think he was in bed, up to that time, all his
life for years, I mean, he was going night and day. And he never walked, he run, to do
something, and then he laid there and I told my aunt, "I'm not coming back no more, I can't.
I just can't stand to see him laying there in that bed." And that's just where he laid for four
years - that was terrible on him.
Q. I didn't realize it was that long. I must not have been around at that time. But I can
remember Capt. Pack, you'd hear the "putt, putt, putt, putt, putt" out in the creek, and you
knew Capt. Pack was coming in and he did just about everything out there, didn't he?
A. That's right.
Q. Eels, crabs..
A. Anything at all, he could do, or he would try. And this time of the year, years ago, he
was in his glory, cause everybody had hogs, and he'd go around place to place to kill those
�[Type text]
hogs. He thought that was the biggest thing going, I think. Everybody got a big kick out of it.
Q. He kept a garden, too, didn't he?
A. Oh, he had a garden, and all those places up there; they had 13 acres. And I've seen him
3
going around there with a hoe, keeping it all cut out and clean. They were just clean as could
be.
Q. Did you ever see him measure a fish if you asked him how big the fish was that he got?
A. Oh, yeah, yeah. He never caught none like that - all of them's that big. [Uses hands to
show lenght.]
Q. My Dad said he'd only hold up one hand. [Laughing.] You had to use your imagination
for the other side of the fish
A. That was him. No rulers!
Q. OK. Jakie Linton was one of the people I wanted to hear about.
A. I don't know much about him.
Q. You don't? OK.
A. He used to live right over here next to me for a while. He kind of kept to himself, I
mean...
Q. Do you know his wife's name?
A. Ethel, Ethel Rogers. She come from down in Churchton.
Q. Oh. OK. Capt. Charlie Bast?
A. Capt. Charlie Bast - Oh, everybody knew him, too. He was a character, I think.
Everything happened to him. He said one day he was crabbing with a trot line. In those days,
they put them in barrels. And a storm come up, and he was out in the river, so he put the
barrel over his head, and they had nails around the bottom; and when the storm was over, he
couldn't get the barrel off, off his head. Rain got in the boat and near about sunk [Laughing.]
He lifted the barrel up, them nails sticking all over his clothes. Everything happened to him,
I'm telling you.
�[Type text]
[Another voice in the background of the man sitting next to Mr. Trott says: "Stanley, did you
ever go gunning(?) with Charlie Bast?"]
A. Yes. He had an ole gun, it had wire on it, string, rope.
[Same background voice: "The experiences I had with gunning with him was that you couldn't
get much huting because you had to look for the game warden all the time, the game warden
was around. He wouldn't buy any hunting license."]
4
A. No. He was a character.
Q. So you've been in Shadyside all except for the three years you were in the Army?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. You were in the Army? And where did you go then?
A. Where did I go then? Oh, over here then England, France, Germany, Luxmbourg, then on
the Czech border.
Q. Oh, OK.
[Background voice asks: "I'd like to know about the year Stanley started school in Shadyside,
what the school was like. What year did you start."]
A. Must've been about 23 or 24. Miss Halla Dawson was my first teacher, and she taught
four classes. Then we went over to the next room to Miss Ethel.
[Background voice asks: "She taught four grades, Miss Dawson taught four grades and then
Miss Ethel taught four, approximately how many students do you think were there?"]
A. Oh, I don't know, about ten, twelve, fifteen, you know, in each class, yeah. Wasn't a
whole lot. About that many.
Q. Where was the school?
A. Right out on the corner where that one (is) now.
Q. Where the Moose Lodge is now?
A. Yeah. When I went there, it was a new school. And the old one was set in there, they had
tore it down a little. I never could get over that either, all those children out there, and that
�[Type text]
school set right on the playground, half of them, and nails, nails settin' in the boards. And I
remember one day I jumped over a log there and a nail went through the bottom of my shoe
and come out the top about that high [shows length with fingers]. Well one of the girls, they
had high school there then, too; and one of the girls took my shoe off, and it was full of
blood. And I went to the doctor, and ole Dr. Danton(?) around there. And he looked at it,
and "Oh, you're all right, come on back." And every time I'd go down there, it would be
healed on the outside, like a scab, but the inside wasn't healed. He had a needle about that big
[shows length of needle with his hands]. "OK, sit up here." He'd take that and run it through
there two or three times, and that was worse than when I stepped on the nail. Oh my Lord! I
was only about eight years old then, and I think the needle has scared me to death.
5
Q. Now my Dad said you were in the hospital. He remembers visiting you in the hospital.
What was that all about?
A. Well, I've been there about three times. When I was 13, I had a ruptured appendix and I
was in the hospital two months or more, and I was in like a coma, I think, for five weeks.
And when I come out, I must've been still in my coma now. [Laughing.] But I had quite a
time but I had a good doctor.
Q. Well, my Dad remembers being very worried that you weren't ever going to come out of
there cause you were so thin.
A. Nobody who'd seen me (?) When I got to walking around, about two or three weeks, I
weighed myself in the hospital, I weighed 65 pounds, nothing but skin and bones.
Q. I would say so. It was that hospital food, wasn't it?
A. Yeah. [Laughing.]
Q. Describe for us what your impression was of Shadyside when you were growing up, what
it looked like to you, and the people.
A. Well, it was a great place, I thought. When I come out of the Army, I remember part of
the United States, I'd come back to Shadyside. And I'd tell everybody, I'd say, 'Well,
Shadyside, it's not doing so good.' They'd say, well, I think it's growing. I'd say 'No, I
mean the last 25, 30, or 50 years.' I said, when I was living here, we used to have a movie,
we had a modeling? company. We had hotels, we had six stores. I said 'Now what've we
got?. All of that is gone. But I didn't mean that.
Q. Sure, but that's true.
�[Type text]
A. Barber shops, pool rooms. I mean all that stuff. A Ford franchise, Mr. Now(?) he sold
Ford automobiles and trucks and all.
Q. Where was that?
A. Right across from that store there at (??)
The movies was there, too.
Q. That's what I think. It's got a sign on it says "Off Building Supply"? I think somebody is
trying to fix that building up? I saw some workers over there.
A. Yeah, they are. They've got to or three people, I think, living there.
Q. What kind of movies did they show there?
6
A. All kinds. Had some, Bill Club? Murray(??) and Perk (??) Lee, they used to run the
machines. And those, well, you had one reel and it cut off, and then they had to put another
reel on, so you'd sit there in the dark while they'd turn the light on in about two or three
minutes; but it seemed like half an hour [Laughing.] They always had a crowd, though,
many as they could get in there.
[Background clock chiming and man sitting next to Mr. Trott says: "They were silent
movies."]
A. Yeah. Silent films.
Q. I heard they had entertainment?
A. Yeah, there was, too,?? used to have shows
Q. How about before the movie? Would somebody come out and play an instrument or
something? Do you remember anything like that?
A. No, I don't. I don't remember that.
Q. OK, and the barber shop; who ran the barber shop?
A. Taylor ? Leatherbury run it. Well, it was a barber shop there up until Taylor was. I heard
my Dad said it used to be the barber shop when he was a young fella so he goes back, in fact
Q. And a bull (?) room?
�[Type text]
A. And my aunt Witt?, she married one of the Marburys there. She had one son, Gordon
Nicholas, do you remember him? [Speaking to man sitting to his left. And this man replies:
"No".] You don't remember him? He was in Medford's (??). [Same voice says: "I
remember when they operated the movie out there. Capt. Bill Now (?) of course, owned the
movie, and Gilbert and Bert operated the projector. But then, Capt. Bill, he would tell Gilbert
to do something, and Gilbert, he would tell Pert, and Pert, he would look for Harry Procter to
finally get the job done."]
Q. [Laughing.] Designation of authority, huh? Now, how would you travel around when you
were growing up? How would you travel around?
A. Walk. We didn't think nothin' if winter time come, we'd all go skating. Everybody went
skating. And anytime that they knew where some ice, they took us all down around Columbia
Beach and up Cumberstone, take to walkin', maybe somebody might pick you up; don't, that's
all right, we'd walk. And go up there and skate for ten minutes and walk for an hour.
[Laughing.] [Background voice again says: "I was wondering about that myself, that we had
a Ford dealership here in Shadyside during that period, but I was just wondering how
7
many people had automobiles back then? There weren't very many, I'm sure"]
A. Not too many, no. Most everybody was getting one(??). I know my Dad had one
because he got one in '24. [Background voice again said, "Was it a Ford, Stanley?"] No, it
was a Chevrolet.
Q. [Laughing.] He didn't buy it around here.
A. No, it wasn't. That was the onlyest car he would ever buy. He didn't want nothing but a
Chevrolet. Every time he got a car, he bought one of those.
Q. Do you have a Chevrolet now?
A. Yeah.
Q. That does tend to run in families.
A. That's right. That's all I ever had was a Chevrolet.
Q. How about your children? [Film seems to skip here?? and picks up at another statement:]
Q. ..an award for 30 years, for 28 years of going to work every single day! That is quite an
achievment. [Ginger, responding to yet another background voice says: That's your other
son, right? Glen, is that your middle name or your first name? "That's my middle name;
�[Type text]
James is my first name."] James Glen, OK. James Glen is here with us also. All right, now
tell us about Miss Ethel.
A. Miss Ethel?
Q. Miss Ethel Andrews.
A. She's one, like Capt. Pack, Miss Ethel was one, too. That's one woman. To me, she was
something. She could make you learn. [Laughing.] I mean. I know we went to school.
George Rogers was in the same class I was in, and out here we had those real big old stoves,
about as big as that table, and it burned coal. And that old stove, if you turned it up, it turned
red. And he goes up, at lunch time, goes up to the store and then, Mr. Hopkins had it, I
believe. And he come back with half a pound of black pepper. After he got back in school,
round about that stove got red, he throwed all that pepper on top of that stove. Everybody in
that room was sneezing and coughing, and Miss Ethel, she was shaking her head. After a
while she found out and she laid it on George, I'm telling you.
Q. Did he have a nickname?
A. No.
8
Q. He's not the one they called 'Newts'?
A. No.
Q. That was a different 'George Rogers'?
[Other background voice answers also: "No. That was his uncle.]
Q. Oh, OK. All right. Any other characters you remember from school?
A. There were some way ahead of me. I know this one, Earl Carter. Lives down close to
where the Salem Avery is, I don't know, next door. She used to beat him every day on his
knuckles, I'm telling you, bleed. That boy was just, he just, I don't know, he got into one
thing after another. He didn't pay any attention to her he and he knew what that ruler would
mean. Next day, he'd start again. [Laughing]
Q. He was getting attention wasn't he?
A. Yeah, he was something. All over again.
Q. Now, anybody else?
�[Type text]
A. It was two or three more. I know one more was Burton Procter. He used to buy a pencil
every morning. When he'd get in school, he'd take his knife out, and he'd take that one
pencil and make it about that long. And we'd always ask him, "Oh, it writes better." And he
was left handed and he'd cut that pencil sharper than he had (??) I couldn't get over that, a
brand new pencil and cut it up in pieces.
Q. How about did you ever go down on Bast Lane at all when you were growing up?
A. Where abouts?
Q. Bast Lane
A. Yes, I lived next door to it. Yes, that's right up to the end of Mr. Bast, he owned that.
Right where Jack Rayne(?) come down to the main road?? [Film seems to skip a bit.]
Q. OK. Is our half-hour up, George? No, OK
A. My Lord, I thought it was a day. [Man sitting next to Mr. Trott says: "I always heard a
story about Capt. Fred Bast that they had some boys were there visiting his people and they
were having supper, and they had hotdogs, and they had been drinking quite a bit. And one
guy thought he had grabbed a spoon, instead he had grabbed his hotdog and was stirring his
coffee with his hotdog. [Laughing.] And Capt. Bast looked at him and says, 'My Lawd,
9
child, he says, you got sausage in your coffee'"]
Q. [Laughing.] Now do you know there's a big issue these days about where people are
buried, and there's so much building going on, and these places where people are buried are,
you know, being dug up. Do you know of any body that's buried down in here that's in an
unmarked grave, that you just happen to know that's where they are?
A. For example, down below here it's Hartge's graveyard. In other words, Hartge's, when
they come over to this country, they settled here. And they owned well practically all this part
was Hartges. Then they went to Galesville, but their graveyard is down there, and lot of them
they just had sticks. They all are gone. I remember my grandmother, she had, I think, two or
three children there, and she used to go down right often; and I was small. She'd come by the
house, and I'd walk down with her and help her [Man next to Mr. Trott asks: "Was that in
the Hartge graveyard?"] Yeah, in the Hartge graveyard. The Hartges ?total? all those people
down there. I think a lot of those Wicks are buried there, too. Then, of course, my
grandmother took them and put them up in Quaker Burying Ground.
Q. Your grandmother took what?
�[Type text]
A. Took the bodies out of the coffins and put them up in Quaker's Burying Ground later on.
Q. Oh, of the children? And what was your grandmother's name?
A. Jenny, they called her. Jennifer, I guess, I don't know.
Q. You don't happen to know her maiden name do you?
A. Parks.
Q. Oh, OK. Then her married name was?
A. Linton.
Q. OK
A. See I think, I don't know. She come down around Deale Beach, and I don't know where
they come from originally, from Eastern Shore, I believe. [Man next to Mr. Trott interjects:
"Parks is an Eastern Shore name."] Yeah.
Q. Have you ever heard of anybody from your family coming from Dorchester County?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember any people by the last name of Edgar/Evers?
10
A. No, I've heard of them but I never knew them.
Q. Do you recognize that last name? [She looks to the man sitting next to Mr. Trott, and he
responds: "I've heard of it. I thought Stanley had an Edgar - there was an Edgar that was
married to a Linton. I can't really expand on it because I didn't know that much about it. But I
have heard the name "Edgar" in connection with some of the Lintons over there. Who owned
the property where your Dad lived. I know Johnny Griner (?) owned the property prior to
him. Do you know?"]
A. Capt. Fred Bast [The man next to Mr. Trott then adds: "Bast. Well, any way, I know
I've heard the word "Edgar", but I really can't expound on it, that's all. I've heard that
name."
Q. OK. Because I do genealogy, and I believe that you and my Dad were cousins through
Dorchester County. Through people that came over here from Dorchester County. [The man
�[Type text]
next to Mr. Trott says: "A lot of Parks in Dorchester County. Stanley's grand-mother's
maiden name was Parks. Quite a few Parks."]
Q. And that's where your people came from, too? [Question directed to same man, and he
replies "Yes".] [Clock chimes in background, and tape sems to skip ahead to Mr. Trott.]
A. When I went oystering, I used to go with my Dad. I started about when I was ten years
old. I'd get sick every day, every day, and I mean sick.
Q. Seasick?
A. I got over it. I tell you, you could be sick all the rest of your life but that's one of the
worst that ever was - seasickness, and can't get over it. That is a terrible feeling. And after a
while, I got used to it, and then after I come out of school, I went to work for my father until I
went in the Army. Well, when I come back, I worked. I think I got out in '72 or '73, I quit
oystering. [Man next to Mr. Trott says: "Stanley, tell us how you oystered, the method you
used. The catches you made then, the prices you sold them for, and the people you sold them
to."]
A. That was in the Depression, but the people around here, they never knew what the
Depression was because they only got $.40 a bushel for oysters. And that's all I got, you
know, when I come out and started with my Dad. And we didn't get, I guess, a dollar until
around about the 60's, I guess. We never heard of a $1 a bushel for oysters; and now a days
they get $25, $30, $40 a bushel. But that's the way it was. It was oysters every where; there
was plenty of them then.
Q. Did you have a particularly favorite spot?
A. Oh, no. You didn't have, well, later on, yeah; but oysters was everywhere. You could
11
load your boat. I know Capt. Willard (?)Crandell, he was my uncle, and him, my Dad and I
went up on (?) Dockman Slumps (?) up off Annapolis, two hours, loaded that boat, come from
Annapolis, down here, she had that much water [shows amount with fingers] from (?) that's
flat, right on. (?)
Q. Oh my goodness!
A. Two hours, loaded that boat up. Piled up. But she was a small boat.
Q. What was the boat called?
A. Didn't have a name.
�[Type text]
Q. Where did he keep it?
A. Down at Parish Creek.
Q. And who did you sell to?
A. Didn't sell them days. We was planting them all, putting(?) them all. Those days, well,
before that, we never had mark(?) like we do now. We used to start in September and up until
well, when they got Christmas orders, in the pack us(??), which was between Thanksgiving
and Christmas. After that we didn't have much to do then. January that was they never did
do(??), no, they didn't want no oysters. So, we worked in the fall, then when springtime come
we'd catch those oysters and put 'em on our ground itself (?). So we always had plenty of
oysters, right on our ground itself(?), you know. So that's the way it worked.
I heard my grandfather say, Jakey Linton (?), that when oyster season was over, if he had $60,
he was all right until September. The whole summer. He had seven children and all, and he
said $60, lump sum.
Q. That's amazing. [Man's voice in background says, "But he had a big garden."]
A. He had a big garden. Everybody had a garden. Now when I was coming up.. [Man's
voice says: "And no place to spend your money.] All I had to spend was for kerosene for our
light. They could get sugar, flour, well, that's about all they bought. They'd get a barrel of
flour and a bag of sugar, and the rest of the stuff they raised. They had big gardens. They all
had chickens, and turkeys and ducks - anything that walked on two legs
that we coud eat, they raised. And all had dogs, old rabbit dogs, some went hunting every day
when they didn't have nothing else to do, so they all lived a good life. [Man's voice in
background says, "In relation to what you said about Christmas market for the oysters, there
was an old saying in the oyster industry that if you didn't make it by Christmas, you weren't
going to make it."] That's right, that's right.
12
Q. What do you mean by 'make it'?
A. [Man next to Mr. Trott says: "Make money. In other words, if you didn't make any
money by Christmas time, which was, of course, was their peak in the market, in the oyster
market, then you weren't going to make it.]
Q. So you may as well stay home January, February, March, and April?
A. [Man next to Mr. Trott: "Well, you would eke out a living, but you weren't going to
�[Type text]
make any money to, wouldn't be any surplus or wouldn't get a good price for the oysters.]
Q. What were the best years here on the bay?
A. Best years? I think every one, every one [Laughing.]
Q. OK.
A. Just take steps, now, I think, maybe one. Well, I'm 83. My Lord. Today, I just look for
tomorrow. If it comes, I'm thankful for it. It's all good. [Man next to Mr. Trott says:
"Stanley, how many tongers(?) were reported in this area? (?) ]. I don't know how many.
[His next question to Mr. Trott: "How many boats do you think were working out of Parish
Creek and West River when you were oystering?"] I guess 100. [Man, again: "At least
100?"] At least 100, maybe more.
Q. And these were hand-tongers?
A. All of them hand tongers, [Man next to Mr. Trott says: "That's the only method you
could use here. What do we have today, Stanley, three or four?"] Three or four. [Man
again: "I think we have some down in St. Mary's County, tongers."]
Q. Did you ever clam?
A. Yeah, but I never cared for that.
Q. Too hot?
A. No, I don't know. I just didn't care for it.
Q. Do you like clams?
A. Ah, no, yeah, I like fried clams. [Man next to Mr. Trott says: "The clamming industry
didn't start here until the 60's, the early 60's."]
Q. No kidding? I didn't know that.
13
A. [Man next to Mr. Trott continues: "That's right. It was due to the fact that a hydraulic
dredge was invented by a guy over on the Eastern Shore named Angst. Was it Angst over in
the Oxford area?"] Yeah, Angst. [Man continues: "And he invented this hydraulic dredge and
this was really the beginning of the clamming harvest here into Maryland. Prior to that, they
used to anchor a boat and use the propellar to wash the soil out from around the clams, and
then they had a net behind the wash which would catch the clams when they rolled back,
�[Type text]
which was a very inefficient way to catch them."]. I've seen those clammers when they'd first
start, though. They'd, you know, put their hands around 'em like that, pull them like that,
nothing but clams, big clams. [Man next to Mr. Trott again says: "Ask Stanley how the catch
has declined from when they first started clamming. When they first started clamming, your
grandfather would catch over 100 bushel; and today they'd be lucky if they could catch ten.
But they could catch all they wanted back when they first started, when the industry first
started."]
Q. Why do you think that is?
A. Well, they said that the harvest they dug 'em out, and they claim they had a disease in
them, killed so many. I don't know. Too much for me.
Q. So if you were Governor of Maryland, would you have any suggestions on how they could
bring the bay back?
A. No in deed. If they was going to bring it back, they can spend millions and millions of
dollars. I don't see a whole lot of difference in it. [Man next to Mr. Trott interjects: "I think
the keynote of conservation, of seafood conservation, is inefficiency and that doesn't go with
the modern-day programs. It's high technology and being efficient. And the resource just
won't take it. The methods of harvesting are too efficient and there's no, ugh, the resource
can't take it."]
Q. Sure. So we should've gone back to the old days where they used to use the motor
to...[Laughing.]
A. [Man next to Mr. Trott again interjects: "Well it seems kind of terrible to be doing things
today the way your great-grandfather did, see; but when you've got a resource out here and
you've got to take everything into consideration. I think that the primary, I'm sure that
pollution has had somehing to do with all the ?"] Oh, I think so, too, yeah. [Man next to Mr.
Trott continues: "But I think that the main thing is over-harvesting with all the seafood
products: oysters, fish and crabs."]
Q. So you were an oysterman pretty much all your life then?
A. Yeah.
Q. And then during the summer you.....
14
A. I worked carpenter's work, anything at all, when we were first ??), just so I had
something to do, yep, I was all right.
�[Type text]
Q. Now I'd like to ask you about your wife. Is she from around here?
A. Ah, yes and no. She was from Washington but she spent most of her time down here and
down around Prince Frederick.
Q. What was her maiden name?
A. Bailey.
Q. Bailey?
A Bailey.
Q. And her first name was?
A. Evelyn.
Q. Evelyn. And what year did y'all get married?
A. '42.
Q. So was that before you went into the service?
A. Yeah. Let's see, '41, and then I went into the service in '42.
Q. Where did she stay when you were gone?
A. She stayed with her mother and father; she was the onliest child they had.
Q. And when did y'all move to this house?
A. '54 or something like that, I built it.
Q. You built this house?
A. Yeah. I lived down Avalon Shores and bought this piece of land and then I built this
house.
Q. Fantastic! Was Glenn born then?
A. Ah, yeah. He was young then.
15
�[Type text]
Q. What year were you born Glenn?
A. [Voice in background replies, "'47".]
Q. OK, so you were, like, two years behind my brother. [Clock chimes in background.]
A. [Same voice replies: "That's right, yes."]
Q. Or ahead of my brother, actually.
A. [Glenn replies, "Yes. That's right."] '47, you were born, that's right.
Q. You own the piece of property next door, the big field?
A. Glenn, that's Glenn's.
Q. OK. I see y'all taking care of it all the time; beautiful piece of property.
A. I told him to put some trees on it; said no, he didn't want any trees on it. When he cut
grass he didn't want to go run on trees, so he didn't put none; good idea, I guess.
Q. When you were growing up, how many houses were down here in the West Shadyside
area?
A. Oh, my Lord. I would say about a dozen, 12 or 15, something from here on down. It
wasn't many. Just them old time, like Capt. Fred Bass, big old house there. Then you went
around to the next house was (?) Millicents(?) Lintons, but that's, I think that was the
Lintons house, I mean the first one of the old... About two, well, my grandfather and uncle
built a house around there; there, that was Lintons, and that was the one till you went down on
that point, I don't know who started them; but I think most of them is the people that come
there, then went to Galesville The Witts, the Bannons(?) and Hartges and, I don't know, (?),
one or two others. [Man sitting beside Mr. Trott asks: "Ask Stanley something(?) about the
'Emma Giles'?"]
A. 'Emma Giles'? Yeah, I remember that, too. That was the greatest day you ever seen
around. "Here comes the 'Emma Giles', so we was young. We went down the shore to see
the 'Emma Giles' coming in; that was really great. I remember one time, (?) had a store down
in there, right down the bottom there, and Mr. Owens. And my mother told me, she said
'How about you going out in that field and getting me some watercress.' She was crazy about
any kind of greens; so I went around there and I was cutting the watercress, and I heard a
noise. And after a while, I heard it again, and I looked up and it was an airplane. That was
the first airplane I'd ever seen. And I took out a running from that field, went down in the
�[Type text]
store and got in the door and peeped out. I didn't know what it was, I can remember that now
just as plain as could be.
16
Q. How old do you think you were?
A. I couldn't be very old, 6 or 7, I guess, 7 or 8 years old. First airplane I'd ever seen.
[Laughing.] It was something.
Q. What do you think it was doing around here?
A. I didn't know. That's why I took off. I didn't know what it was.
Q. Now did you ever get to go on board the 'Emma Giles'?
A. Ah, no, I never went for a ride on the 'Emma Giles'. I have been on Mr. Nowell, he used
to have (from Parish Creek), he had a boat that run passengers to Annapolis and back, I don't
know, every day or every two or three days a week or something. And I remember going
Annapolis on that, too. I was small.
Q. Did that boat have a name?
A. I imagine so but I don't remember that. [Man next to Mr. Trott says: "Probably did,
probably had a name. If he was carrying passengers the boat was probably documented and
would have a name."]
Q. Do you know anything about this boat? [Question directed to same man sitting next to Mr.
Trott.]
A. ["The only thing I know is that we have a picture of it at home, and I think he had several,
well, a couple different boats, but they were steamboats. The first one he had was a small
steamboat, and he ran to Annapolis, and this was to help the schedule of the 'Emma Giles'.
The 'Emma Giles' probably came in twice a week, or what, Stanley?"]
A. Mr. Trott replies: I guess a couple trips a week.
A. [That same man next to Mr. Trott then says: "In my time, it came in twice a week, and
probably maybe three times a week earlier, but Capt. Bill Nowell (SP?) would supplement that
schedule with his own boat going to primarily to Annapolis. You could go to Annapolis to get
the train to go to Baltimore, I believe, (??), but travel wasn't like it is today. Annapolis was a
big deal when you went to Annapolis.
Q. Sure. Now people go there every day, and if we want to go to the movies, that's where
�[Type text]
you have to go. I see you've got a baseball over here on this dresser. What's the significance?
A. That's Glenn's; he would know better. [Voice of Mr. Trott's son, Glenn, says: That's
from the Baysox, from a Baysox game we saw. [Then other man's voice says: "He's a fan;
17
ask him what he thinks of the Orioles?"]
Q. Ok. I want to ask about a boat called the 'Shadyside'?
A. I don't know anything about that onr. [Man next to Mr. Trott responds: "I believe that
the boat called the 'Shadyside' belonged to Capt. Ed Leatherbury who also ran a passenger
service, in addition to the 'Emma Giles' and the Capt. Bill Nowell. I'm not sure; I never saw
the boat, but I heard that he had a boat named 'Shadyside'."]
Q. So, what years would this have been?
A. [Same man replies: "This would have been in the '20's, the 1920's."]
Q. Oh, OK. And I think a lot of people, including me, have the 'Emma Giles' and
'Showboat' as one boat?
A. No, huh-ugh. 'Showboat' used to come in, when, the latter part of summer? [Man next to
him replies: "August, late August."], and that went all over the Chesapeake Bay. But it would
come up and go to Galesville and tie up there, and would stay there a week; and each day
they'd have a different show, maybe two or three shows. They'd show it two or three times
a day, I guess. I don't know. We used to go over there at night time and see it. It was
something great then, I mean, too. People see that. They have a tug boat to tow it in. It was
very good.
Q. Now did it have power on its own or was it towed all over the place?
A. I think it had a tugboat, didn't it have a tugboat? [Man next to Mr. Trott replies: "It had
two tugs."]
Q. Now did you go there to eat dinner and watch a show or just watch the show?
A. No, no. Just watch the show. That's it.
Q. Do you remember how much it costs to go in?
A. I have no idea; it wasn't much. [Man next to Mr. Trott replies: "Five cents, I think?]
�[Type text]
Q. And what years was this?
A. You got me again I don't know. [Man next to Mr. Trot says: "It was all during the
1930's in my time."]
Q. OK.
18
A. [Same man continues: " All during the '30's, the amazing thing about it is it would always
be so many small boats, like rowboats and littlsailboats. That's how people would go to see
the show, and they had one of the shows, I remember, I think, it was 'Ten Nights in a Bar
Room', something like that [Laughing.]; but it was quite an event for the 'Showboat' to come
in. We would really look forward to it."]
Q. Ok. Another person I'd like to ask you about, we've talked about the Basts, how about
Miss
Edna Bast?
A. Oh Miss Edna, Miss Edna was a character, I'm telling you. She used to, well, she lived
right close to, you know where the Basts lived. And she used to come down to this house here
every day to get milk. Mr. Halleck (??) had some cows. But she'd come by our house and
start talking to my mother. She'd talk and she'd talk, and be an hour and she said 'Well, I
guess I'd better go; Paw will think I've joined the army.' [Laughing.] That's what she used to
say, every time. She was real skinny, just as skinny as could be. She was a nice old lady, but
I called her 'old lady' then, to me it was, she was very nice.
Q. Now where did Mr. Halleck live?
A. Right on this corner here.
Q. Where Graham Siegert lives, lived?
A. Yeah. That was Mr. Halleck.
Q. And what was his first name?
A. Harry, Harry Halleck.
Q. And he had cows?
A. Cows? Yeah, yeah. Had cows all these places round there in back of me was all farmed
then. They used to grow corn and stuff and when that was out, they used to turn cattle loose
�[Type text]
in there of course they kept that just like a yard. And since we've been here, that's all, when I
first come here, I could see down to Avalon Shores, cars going down that road. Now you
can't see nothing but woods and all..(?)
Q. That is amazing to know that Avalon Shores is right there. Do you remember any years
where we had particularly hard freezes around here?
A. Oh, yeah. They was in the '30's, too. I know that was, yeah, they had ice on this out
here, about so deep, 18"[Mr. Trott indicates depth of the ice with his hands.], I guess. And
the whole thing, those days, you could go to, on the bank of the Chesapeake, somewheres up
19
there, you would see those freighters going up and down. Maybe two or three coming up;
you'd look up and see two or three coming down. Now a days, you might see one a week, or
something; but I've seen 'em come up to as far as Bloody Point, and just sat right there, they
couldn't even go through ice, and real big boats just sat there, couldn't move. And I used to
come down the bay and, where Thomas Point lighthouse, they had ice from(?) shore piled up
big as the lighthouse, be the ice piled up out there. I used to say to myself, I'm glad I'm not
on that lighthouse. Never happened to them, but...
Q. [Question from man sitting next to Mr. Trott: 'Stanley, when things were frozen up
around here, the river, and a lot of ice out in the bay, did you and your father go to Annapolis
to oyster?"]
A. Yeah, we used to go up there.
Q. [Same man asks: "And the reason you went there, for why?"]
A. Becuase the ice breaker would be in there, so you kept that open all the time, a channel.
Q. [Same person ask: "The ferry boats, old ferry boats."]
A. Ferry boats, yeah.
Q. [Same man says: "Ferry boats used to run from Annapolis to Claiborne to keep the track
open in Annapolis and then the mouth of the Severn River, most of the time, would be ice
free, not exactly ice free; but the wind, the north-west wind, the prevailing wind, would kind
of keep the ice from the Severn River."]
A. One day Pack and Dad left in two boats and was going to carry them up there. They got
to Talis (??), that ice got 'em coming down, ebb (?) tide, right there on Thomas. That was
about 11 o'clock, I believe. Then the ferry boat come by the toll said, 'I can't do nothing, but
when I come back, if you're here, I'll tow you in.' And he went on down to [Clock chimes in
�[Type text]
background.] Manapeake, (sp.?) Claiborne; and when he come back, it was still there. And
my father said that was all that saved them, too, 'cause that ice was all over. All they did was
stay there and keep that ice from running up over(??)and loading the boat up; but they
would've sunk.
[Man next to Mr. Trott says: "The Annapolis harbor would really be full of oyster tonging
boats and dredge boats; I mean you could walk across the harbor on boats anywhere you
wanted, and that was the reason because they couldn't get out here, they couldn't get out.
They'd almost have to cut their way out but if they could get to Annapolis they could work
three or four days a week any way."] Mr. Trott continues: We used to have a Model T Ford,
and my Dad and Pack fixed it up and put it out on that river and they was running that thing
around there till, well, the ice got soft. And the ice got soft and used to be a wave put in so
they said well, put it on the shore and they used to haul oysters. Cut a hole, take the horses
20
up, put them on a sleigh, hook it on back of the old Model T Ford, and they'd go up Galesville
to (?) Winfields, dump 'em out, come on back.
Q. [Laughing.] Oystering by car!
A. Yeah, with an old Model T.
Q. Now did that happen often or was that like one particular year?
A. What did you say?
Q. Was that one particular year?
A. Yeah, yeah. That was a hard year. Then you would... [Man next to Mr. Trott interjects:
"had to be hard enough to freeze so the ice would be hard enough to hold."] All winters was
rough, but some was worse than others. It'd stay all the winter. Get a snow in November and
that would stay on the ground till March. That's the way it used to be around here.
Q. Sure. Isn't that way any more, is it?
A. No. I can remember when I was small, in the front here, Mr. Atweel had a fence, just an
ordinary fence, and I'd see many a time drifts of snow was high as that [indicates height with
his hand], and that was really plenty of snow.
Q. Mr. Atwell, did he live where Capt. Pack used to live?
A. Yeah, Pack bought it from Mr. Atwell.
�[Type text]
Q. What was Mr. Atwell's first name?
A. Ah, now you got me, John! Yeah, John.
Q. What was his wife's name?
A. He never was married, not that I know of.
[Voice in background says: "Hold it stop, OK? Was there something Howard said about
growing up in Shadyside, you just said something? (Man next to Mr. Trott says: 'Yeah,
about the development of Shadyside, about the summer homes in the beginning and then, now,
the year-round homes.'"]
Q. OK, yeah let's talk about that, how the population would change in Shadyside during the
summer time. [Background voice says: "Are we ready?"]
21
A. Used to be boarding houses around here. Well, gee, I'll bet there were six or seven
boarding houses around here. And every summer, they used to be all full of people that come
down for the summer or maybe a couple weeks or something, just to get out of the city maybe.
And it was lively out there to Mrs. Now's (SP?). They had a dance. Night time they had a
band there and all them people was dancing Gee, that was a great thing, too. I know I was
small, and my Dad had tha '24 Chevy, and we used to go out there and set on the side of the
road right there by the hotel, in the ditch. That's why we'd put two tires in the ditch so the
other cars could come through the road. Ad we'd sit there till about ten o'clock at that dance
and that was the greatest thing that ever was. And then my Dad would say "well, you children
getting tired?" One of 'em would say, "Yeah" "OK, I'll go get you some ice cream." So
he'd go in and get an ice cream cone for all of us, and well, we was all right again for a while.
It was good, but it was a lot of people. They'd come there for dancing and all that. I often
think about how many boarding houses there was; now we don't even have our own hotel now,
so Shadyside is going to pieces. [Laughing.] There you are. [Laughung.]
So, that's right. Then there was, talk about old Babe Ruth... My Dad used to run fishing
parties (?), so I was about 12 years old and that must've been, it's got to have been around
'30. He was in his prime then, and I often told Glenn, all that time, I never got a, I could've
asked him for a baseball, and he.........END of TAPE!
[Tape stops suddenly!}
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Title
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Oral Histories - Voices of Shady Side
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Captain Avery Museum
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2000014-Trott-Stanley
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PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY
Captain Avery Museum
Matthews, Carrie Bell Crowner
1998.017.0 0 4
Date of Interview: June 19, 1998
# 1998.0 17.004
Interview of: Carrie Bell ? Crowner Matthews
Interviewed by: Glorious Shenton and Joan Dean
Transcribed by: Donna Williams, June 26, 2004
[ Tape begins as Mrs. Matthews' introduction has begun.] .
Q. ...interviewing Carrie B. Matthews -- that's Bowles?
A. That's right, B-O-W-L-E-S.
Q. ...of 1422 Columbia Beach Road, Shadyside, Maryland; and this is June 19, 1998.
I'm gonna ask questions, and you answer and fill in anything that you want. Now this...we
are interviewing Carrie B. Matthews, and it's Friday, June 19, 1998. Would you please
give us your full name, including your maiden name, birth date and your birth place?
A. Well, it is Carrie Bell Matthews, or Bowles, rather;...or should I have said 'Crowner'
Matthews? ... or is that necessary?
Q. Get 'em all in there [ Laughing.]
A. That's true. And my birthday is April 21, 1909 at Fork Union, Virginia. It's actually on
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the map in Fluvanna, County.
Q. Fuvanna?
A. FLU - F-L-U...Fluvanna
Q. That's where Fork Union Academy is?
A. That is correct...that is correct. My father helped to build the chapel there, and I
played in it...being the first colored person to play that chapel organ for the first
integrated, inter-denom-inational Thanksgiving Eve (? ? ) services, which I felt was a great
honor to me, an humble person, and? ? I? ? my beginning... to have been able to share
with the people some of the things that I had been taught when I lived in
Fredericksburg,Virginia, with my aunt and her only daughter. She saw to it that we got
music and that we were schooled; and then after...proceeded from there to Washington to
finish my high school. and...must I continue?
Q. Yes...
A. And then in Washington, I accidentally I got ? Irodine - I-R-O-D-I-N-E... the
? ? pure? ? stuff they were making then, in my left eye. And for seven years, I couldn't do
any studying.
However, I didn't give up the desire to finish my high school. My mother, at the time, was
a housekeeper at the...in the Kasper Music School, also in Washington, and she was quite
worried because she wanted me to at least get through high school. So, what I did, I
went to night school and completed my high school education in the Cordoza ? ? evening
high school. I graduated in 1936; this is my class ring [ shows ring on her left hand] ...my
mother gave it to me.
And I felt very elated, and I felt that I had accomplished as much in the evening school as
I would've in the day school, because in the day school, it was more or less compulsion
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that I go. My mother insisted that I go. But in night school, I went because I wanted to
go and I accomplished a lot musically and otherwise. I enjoyed it a lot. It took...well,
from there I started to work after getting my mother all straightened, holding down her job
for a couple of years after because of her surgery. I decided then to go into the hairdressing business. And at that time, I had friends who were connected with the Blue
Chemical Company. This was a chemical company operated by the late Dr. James E.
Blue. He was from British Guyana. His wife was British; they had two sons enrolled ?
Howard/ in college...one of them had a crush on me. [ laughs in background.]
And so I was given the opportunity to kind of be manager of this Blue Chemical beauty
parlor. I enjoyed that a lot.
And Dr. Blue decided...he felt that I was doing such a good
job he would expand the business to...out into Virginia and into Maryland...and that I would
be a good person to take the canvassers and teach them how to sell, because he said I
had a gift of gab. [ Laughs in background.] So having had some salesmanship in school,
I used that in trying to get these canvassers into the business of selling the Blue Chemical
Products. And that is what brought me to this part of Maryland. We would come every
two weeks to Galesville, then Shadyside and then Churchton. But we always made
Churchton our last stop because of the fact that by the time we had completed our
canvassing, it was time to eat a good, hearty dinner...because we had walked so much all
day. And at that time, the colored people did not have any place wherein they could eat
or drink or recreate themselves except for a little store that was in Churchton, called the
Blount's Store. They had a jukebox there, and of course, I used to like to shake a foot
[ Laughing in background.] , and especially the tango...but I couldn't find but one person
down here who could seemingly do the tango or something equivalent to that. And that
was a gentleman who called everybody 'Cuz' - his name was ? Saggy ? Thompson
Q. Oh, yes!
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A. I think everybody knows him.
Q. That's right.
A. And so I had talked with Mrs. Blount as to our expectations...the girlfriend who was
one of the agents and I were planning to go to Howard University and study medicine. I
was going to be a pediatrician. And so then I'd asked Mrs. Blount, is there any place that
we could rent wherein we could serve meals and probably have some house guests on
the weekends, because our church and many other churches that we knew in Washington,
would be...the members would have...they had nice people who we could recommend in
anyone's homes...wanted to come out in the summer and eat a good country meal.
And my friend was Rosetta Harriman? ? . She and I have never had any complaints about
our cooking [ Laughs.] Every body thought we could make the best southern fried
chicken, and pies and cakes. So she said...Mrs. Blount said to me, 'you know, I know a
gentleman who has lost his wife. It's just him and his brother, and they have a nice, big
home. Maybe you could rent his house.' So, I said, well...I asked the Doctor what did he
think of it, and he said, 'well, I think that's wonderful'. And then Dr. Blue asked who it
was. And she said, 'well, that's him sitting over in the corner there now.'
Sooo...will you
ask him to please come over and talk with us? ' So Mrs. Blount called him over, and he
[ dog barks in background] . started talking with us(? ? )...'Mr. Crowner, I wonder if there is
any possibility that these two girls could rent your house in order to serve meals...and if
there's room for overnight visitors since they are connected with so many things...? ... choir
and so many things ? ? and church? ? from Washington ...? very difficult ? they would
have a pretty good? ? ? [ Dog barks in background again.] , both excellent cooks.'
So he said, 'I am an excellent cook, also.' So we said, 'Well, how fortunate.' So if one
desires to or if one gets sick, the other...you ? ? can step in and help out.' He said, 'yes, I
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would be glad to.' So Dr. Blue said, 'well, what would you rent your house for from the
first of May, say, to the first of November...about six months? ' He said, 'Oh, I don't know.
It's nobody now but my brother and me now, but I've lost my wife.
I could rent it to
them for $30 0 .' Dr. Blue said 'Do you have your receipt book in your pocket book, Miss
Bowles? ' I said, 'yes, fortunately, I do.' So Dr. Blue gave Mr. Crowner the $300 so that
we were to begin the first of May, and that our occupancy would last until the first of
November. So I gave...I let Mr. Crowner write a receipt instead of having? ? [ Slight
interruption as mailman leaves mail at the door.]
And so Dr. Blue took the receipt from Mr. Crowner for his $30 0, and so Mr. Crowner
looked at it and said, 'you know, this is more money than I've seen at one time in a long
time. It will help me tremendously toward my debts because' he said, 'I was just about to
lose my home.' He said, 'My first wife had such a big heart, and if somebody would
come to her and ask her to go on a note...She had signed her name and my name to it.
[ Chuckles in background.] And when she died, this is when I found out how much debt
we owed, and I had no way of getting out of the debt because my work is seasonal. I'm
a fisherman, and I also operate a duck blind, but that...and both are conditional. You
don't know how many fish you're gonna catch, or you don't know how many ducking
parties you're going to have.' So he said 'the Lord sent you here just in the nick of time.'
[ Dog barks again in back-ground.]
Dr. Blue said, well, where do you live? ' And he said 'I live over in Shadyside, so the next
time you all come down, come over to my house and have dinner. I'm not trying ? ?
ladies society? ? Christian service? ? out of their [ Shuffling noises prevented me from hearing
this? ? ] but he said 'I'm a good cook and y'all come up to my house for the next two
weeks and have dinner.' So Dr. Blue asked us whether or not we wanted to accept the
invitation, so we said 'yes' So we asked him if there was anything he wanted us to bring.
And he said 'no, I have country food, and if you all have something ? fancy? specifically
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that you want to add to it, for yourselves'..he said, 'It's just my brother and me, and he's
sickly. So we are used to a lot of vegetables. I used to... I kill hogs, I have cured ham
and I want chickens? ? , I raise chickens, turkeys and guineas, and I provide lots of fish.
So, what would you all like to have? ' So, we, out of that variety said 'anything that you fix
will be wonderful for us. So that next two weeks when we came down, we'd sharpen our
appetites for the gorgeous dinner cooked by him; and I used to always say I didn't want to
eat a man's cooking because I just thought he didn't wash his hands often enough.
[ Chuckles in background.] But I, however, I bridged? over that thought to eat some of
his cooking. He looked clean and we got there and his house was clean.
[ Dog barks
again!]
On top of chicken, ham, and he had fried a few fish. I said, 'well'...Dr. Blue said, 'You
know, we can't beat this.' So he said to us... Mr. Crowner did, [ Dog barks over and over
again!] y'all take home with you. Well we felt so? ? lucky? ? So then that two weeks ? ? ?
'come to my house', so we did. Then back on the next trip, that's when we asked to
inspect the house to let us see what was available. So then I said to Rosetta, 'You and I
could sleep in the attic, since he does have an attic, if there is someone who would need
the bedroom that we would be occupying.' So we got the thing all planned out on paper,
and then from there on, Mrs. Blount said, 'Y'all don't stop by as much any more.' So I
said, 'well, Mr. Crowner's made it so home-like for us, maybe we don't want him to feel
we're unappreciative. And that he had...Dr. Blue had paid him for the occupancy of it by
us from the first of May. So we'll be coming up to visit your establishment.'
So some times on our way back we would stop by and we'd have the Womens Society
Christian service to prepare a plate to take home with us. This way they would feel we
? ? ? ? down? ?
So after that then we finally got down here, Rosetta got sick. She had
to have emergency surgery, so that left me by myself. And it was just so handy that he,
Mr. Crowner, could cook and he could fill right in. So I told him I would buy my chickens
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from him and seafood and, in other words, I would utilize what he had here...as much as
I could, 'cause no need to be going out to the store to buy things he already had here.
And so this would help him, too. So he was very grateful and of course he said, 'Now
Miss Bowles, just take over now. This is your house now... just take over.' And he said 'I
assume the way you will do it ? ? you are not people who are just out to get somebody.'
I said, no, that has not been our aim.'
And so Rosetta had gone back in for her surgery; and, of course, she had major surgery
so she wasn't able to do anything the rest of the summer. And so I carried on and I
found out
that around here the predominant thing in the dessert line that people liked
was raisin pie, green tomato preserves pie and sweet potato pie.
Q. Oh, wow! Yes, that's my favorite!
A. Mine, too. And so I have to pat myself on the back, but I've always been a good
sweet potato pie baker, but I didn't know the first thing about green tomato preserves, let
alone the pie or raisin? ? pie, or green tomato pie. So he told me he would make those
pies. So any way, people would come, fell in love with all the foods that we'd serve
them, and so then... I'm getting a little bit ahead of my story a little bit... In all that we'd
be identified as to
where we were located. I had a big sign made 'Terris Inn' - I didn't
see any other Terris Inns around here. So I hd the sign put out front so that people...at
that time the roads were not numbered...neither were the houses. So because of that
sign, that would let people know, you'd tell 'em about how far to drive down, and look on
the right side, that they would see the sign to drive down to the main road. And then I
had some flyers made, which I have saved, and so this way we had a very crowded
seating/ season.
And many people wanted to go in swimming, and at that time Mr. Crowner was the
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overseer of what is now Columbia Beach. The late Admiral Darris? / Terris used to own
that place. And he and his family used to come occasionally and spend the summer or
something in this very home ... Mr. Crowner's home that he had with his first wife and so,
consequently, people recognized his ability to do things to help people because of his
helping with the admiral and other people at the Naval Academy and what not. And this
piano [ She points to her right.] when he used to play, he...I remember some people from
the Naval Academy came down ...they were instructors, and they brought their children,
and he'd sit at the piano and try to help these kids figure out ? ? ? on there. So he would
play it
he knew the song, and then he would teach the children how to play it. He
wasn't a music teacher as such, but he was gifted in being able to play almost anything
that he had heard. So that became famous. And so meantime, I'm back there sweatin' in
the kitchen. [ Laughs.]
So after that, as time went on, Rosetta came back to just be there. She wasn't able to do
the work but just to be there. She always ? ? was like a big sister. So we talked about
our plans in entering Howard that fall. So I said to her, 'this is so good, I don't know
whether we should go in now or wait until the spring and go in for the second semester'.
She said 'well, I haven't been able to do anything to help.' And I said, 'well, what I have
raised...I have put your name on one half of it, because that was our idea to start off
with, and your not being here was not through your fault...it was through your health.
It
could have been me. So I feel that to look out for you would be the right thing to do.'
So I told Mr. Crowner as the time approached for us to give up the eatery and I said 'you
know, it won't be long before we'lll be going...we'll be leaving here.' He said, 'you know
young lady, I have noticed the way that you have handled it, and you are one business
person.' I said, 'Well, I guess I inherited that from my father and my uncle. My uncle
used to have a store down home ...I guess he still did at that time...and I guess that type
of thing is just a part of my family, and I don't know much about my mother's family
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because they lived over on what we called 'the ridge'. You've heard them say ? ? ?
Virginia?
Q. No.
A. Well, they call that 'over on the ridge', which runs a long ways from our home
because Papa told me when he and Mama got married, when he went over that
? Sunday? morning to get her, the river was high. The James River was high, and he had
to drive up to some place they used to cross the Rivanna? ? River. It was high 'cause he
said the water came up almost over the wheels of the buggy. He didn't have a car at that
time in Virginia
Q. So that was in Virginia?
A. That was in Virginia, so...
Q. How do you spell that river? Y-? ?
A. R-I-V-A-N-N-A, Rivanna...and that comes from up in the mountains.
Q. Yes, I can visualize that.
A. Yes. And then the floods...in '69, it was pathetic to see the havoc...the deer and the
houses, poultry... floating in the water. I took movies of the water when it was coming
down. I have a small movie camera, and so it was really pathetic. And so anyways,
Papa said he came near getting Mama's bridal gown ruined because, as I said, there were
no cars and he had to drive over there for her in the buggy, and then they drove back. He
rolled his pants legs down so they wouldn't get wet. And Mama's veil was something, he
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said it wasn't cheese cloth, [ Dog barks again in background when someone laughs.] but
it looked like cheese cloth. [ Laughs.] ? ? but he got ? ? on Mama. However, it didn't
dampen their spirits.
So, they got to the church, there was an old lady there... she said, 'Linda, what happened
to your veil? ' Mama said, 'I don't know.' And the bottom of Mama's dress had gotten this
red water tinted around it. So Aunt Martha...we always called her 'Aunt Martha? ? ', she
always carried the stove, everything, down to the cook stove, in her pocket book.
And
that's why my husband called me Aunt Martha Tucker ... something of everything in there.
So she had some scissors in there and she clipped off the bottom of Mama's veil and the
hem of Mama's dress. And Mama had hoops around it. This lady for who Mama's older
sister worked and Mama stayed there with her, 'cause Grandma had died and Grandpa
had died,
and this lady took in Mama...I've got it in..? ? the girls..? whose portrait is on
the wall [ She points to pictures.] , and she favored her later. But anyway, Aunt ? Fanny
said...she used to stutter...she said 'you know, this is embarrassing.' So the lady whose
Aunt Fanny ? ? was working? ? said well I'll tell you, since your dress does look? ? is bad,
I have a dress that my daughter was married in. Go ahead and let her put this dress on.'
Mama was married in her daughter's dress.
And so when they got to the church, as I said, they had clipped the edge of the veil off so
it made it a short veil rather than a long trail. And they were...the minister, I think, my
mother told me... when he told Papa to salute his bride...so Papa reached up and took
the whole shee-bang off. [ Laughs.] He was so nervous, he didn't know what to do. He
took off the whole thing. And from the way she described it, she had a wreathe around
her head, and it went all the way around, and the veil then, and the little flounces, you
know
But any way, he took that off and kissed her.
And so they were married there in my church that I'm so very fond of and long to go back
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to ...Thessalonia Baptist Church. It was my pleasure, after we moved back to Virginia, to
be instrumental in getting a Hammond organ, and I used to play that for the church. We
had a piano there but the lady who used to play had trouble with her wrists, and I imagine
it was just like I had with my hands...that Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, wherein it prevented
her from playing. So I used to play the organ, and people from the Academy and different
ones who were invited to come to our church, they wanted to hear this organ in
Thessalonia Baptist Church. So a cousin of mine was studying music, and he was urged
to sing a solo, and he sang "Deep River". It was very, very beautiful and effective. And
this Music Director at the Academy asked, he said, 'may I have something to say'? The
pastor granted him permission. And he said 'I knew Robert? ? when he was a little boy
and have watched him grow and do little menial jobs around and never thought he'd
become the baritone that he is now. He said 'I am just so happy for him', and he walked
up to him and hugged him. And others from the Academy who were there did the same
thing. They said 'we are so happy to know that people who have...who were born here at
Fork Union, and some of them have gone away and prepared themselves in some way to
make a contribition to their homeland when they return.'
And this was long before I'd played at the Academy because they were just getting into
normalcy of integration, and every body began to feel that the old custom was something
of the past. And they felt that people should get together, that they should be...it would
encourage the children to... especially the colored children, when they went away to try to
make their lives worthwhile...to do something worthwhile.
Q. What year would this have been?
A. Well, let's see...It must have been 1970...around 1970, because we moved down there
in '68.
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Q. When you say 'we', who do you mean?
A. My husband...my second husband.
Q. Crowner?
A. No, Crowner had died. He and I were married 12 years, but getting back to him...I'm
a little ahead of my story.
Q. Give us his full name...Crowner.
A. James Edward Crowner.
Q. And did he live over here?
A. Yes. And that...all of this [ Using her arm, she indicates a large area.] was his
father's property. From here, I think you know much of this, up to the store up here, and
then all the way back. The Dennis brothers...well, the Dennis' owned a lot of this land
back here, but then when father Dennis' daughter married a Crowner, then the Crowner
portion, that is my husband's portion, is down the road here about... Do you know where
Chucky Gross's house is down here?
Q. No, not really.
A. Well, it's about a half a mile down here. So then going over to Cedarhurst Road,
[ Dog bars in background.] squaring it up, coming up to the Avery Store...not the ...Dean
? Thompson? ... Dean lives between our line and the store. Well anyways joining? the
Thompsons was this huge square of land that... going way, way back...my husband...first
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husband, Crowner, his father owned it... gave him that portion of land. And before he had
given him that portion of land, this spot, right here was the first...the spot on which was
the first colored school of Shadyside was erected.
Q. Right here?
A. Right here. I have a block out there that indicates where the line came. There's no
writing on it. I discovered it when I had the lawn cleaned off after a big tree had fallen
there, and here it was under this big locust tree. And my husband...my first husband told
me then if a child batted his ball, which is an old rag ball, out into the road...and the road
was far from being like it is now...it was just a dirt road...but that child could not go out in
that road to get that ball until the teacher permitted him to do so.
Q. That's right. They were very strict.
A. Very strict.. . but the first children, colored children, who were taught, as he explained
it to me, was in a barn...some person's barn down in Shadyside. I don't know if it was on
Lerch...
Q. [ Mumbles something? ? ]
A. ...but there were Lerchs and Rogers, I think there were Lerchs or Rogers...
Q. ...could be Lerchs
A. ...had a leaf barn/ big barn? down there, and that's where a few went to school...
would go. And then after that, the Board of Education bought this lot for $10 from my
father-in-law. When they no longer needed this spot, when the population outgrew the
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use of this spot, then they moved the school down to where Lula G. Scott is now, and
they had two rooms.
Q. That's right.
A And I was here on the scene when they moved the school in Churchton down the road
and hooked it up to this school. [ Uses arms stretched wide to demonstrate.] And then
they had these...
Q. I have a picture of it on the card(? )...or whatever it was on, 'cause they had to leave
it over night on...by Dent Road. I went up and took a picture of it.
A. How interesting! Well, they came on down... they had these huge...this great big hill
with a tent around it, and what not. You know, I tried to recognize the kinfolk. They said I
was a 'fur-in-er' [ meaning foreigner!]
Q. I know, they would say that.
A. I know that was in any small hamlet, you know, people used these terms and... but...
Q. They loved you any way.
A. Well, I hope they did! I tried to ? myself ? ... right along with them I didn't try to
make them feel that I was any different from them, but I said... so the one who was taken
care of the ? files/ fires? in the school...I called him cousin Jesse, you know? ? couldn't
make the ? ? adopted/ doctor's? ? son say that.
Yeah, ? ? judge Rizzo? ...he was the
custodian of the school. Am I right?
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Q. Right.
A. So, well, after that...
Q. How in the world did you come to marry Mr. Crowner?
A. Well, I was getting ready to come to it. When we...the time was approaching for us to
leave he said, 'you know, I don't think I'm going to let you go back'. I said, 'No...why? '
He said, 'you know, I have observed you, and I have contacts with a lot of ladies, but
you are the top. You would be just the type person I need.' Well, it kind of stunned me
there for a while, and I said, 'Well, how do you know, we haven't courted'. And usually
with courtship, sometimes, people are different like they are when you're having a
business deal with someone. So I said 'I don't think we've known each other that long so
that we can decide whether or not we're suited for marriage, let alone', I said, 'you're
older than my father.' [ Laughing.]
Q. That was James?
A. James E. Crowner. And so he said 'Regardless...I'll be a good husband to you...I
guarantee you I'll be a good husband to you.' I said, Well, I'll have to write and ask my
parents their opinion. So Papa Roblyn? ? had met him, and so at that time...'course my
mother and father had been divorced since I was nine, but my father was living in New
York with his sister. And I wrote Papa, and I said, 'Papa what do you think of me
marrying Mr. Crowner? He's asking me to marry him.' And Papa said, 'Darlin', he is too
old for 'ya. [ Laughing.] Papa don't want you to marry no old man...? ? somebody your
equal.' So I said, 'but he's very nice.' And I told him all of the nice things I had observed
of him. And he said, 'well you don't have to marry him for a home because you have
your own home.' Papa had given me a little farm down in Virginia and built me a little
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house on it, and I enjoyed my home. So I was independent from that point of view.
So I said 'well, let me write to my mother...or call my mother...and ask her opinion. At
that time, Mama was working in Washington at the [ Large truck 9or airplane) rumbles by
noisily in the background.] Academy of Music School. So Mama used to come down
almost every weekend. I'd go up to Wayson's Corner to meet her... the bus used to come
down there...and bring her down, and she observed, too. She was a very sharp observer,
so...
Q. You take after her
A. Well, a lot of people tell me that. [ Laughter.] So, Mama came down...when I called
her. She said, 'You let me come down and do some little observing.' [ Laughter.]
So
Mama came and when I went to meet her I told her I said, 'to me he seems to be a nice
gentleman...he's old and country-fied; but at the same time, he needs somebody'. And I
didn't have no special boyfriend at the time, so I ...because my mind was set on going to
college. And I didn't feel that I had time to be wasting on no boyfriend.
Q. Good girl!
A. So then she said, 'What about college? ' And I said, 'What about it? ' [ Laughter.]
She said, 'Love can cure? everything.' She said, 'What does Rosetta think? ' I said,
'Rosetta said the old man was falling in love with me...I thought he was falling in love with
her! So the minister at our church in Washington... he was a widower... and he was in
love with her... with Rosetta. But she wasn't paying him too much attention... just pass
the time away.. They'd go to dinner, or something like that, you know.
So anyway
Rosetta said to me... when Mama said 'Do you love him? ' I said 'I don't know yet
because I love him from one way... he's been very nice.' He filled the gap of a father,
like 'cause mother and father, as I said, had been divorced for years. And so I wasn't
around my father as much as I would like to have been. And the years that I would have
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been...what do you call it?
Q. Forming your ideas?
A. Forming my ideas, that's right.
Q. Feelings about things...sure.
A. And so, you know, when a child and the parents are separated, it's the child who
suffers because they want to feel something, gain something from both parents. And by
Papa being in New York, I didn't get the feel of the father. I knew he loved me and
would do anything for me but I didn't have that close connection with him. And I love to
fish. Mama loved to fish. Papa wanted no part of the water but the bath tub.
[ Laughing.] And so, therefore, Papa never took me fishing. But Mr. Crowner would take
us out in the boat. We'd go down to the Bay and the being a hillbilly, you wouldn't think
I'd love the water like I do. But I just love the water. So then Mama said, 'If you think
enough of him, if you feel that you can learn to love him, go to it.' So then I answered
'yes'.
So Rev. Middleton, who was here then...A. T. Middleton?
Q. The name, but I don't know him
A.
Well, Rev. Middleton...Rev. Anderson Middleton, was very nice when I'd go to them
for something to ask their advice.
Q. Now was he their pastor at St. Matthews?
A. St. Matthews and Franklin, at that time. Those two churches..? ?
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Q. They had both churches...
A. And so, I said 'Rev. Middleton, Mr. Crowner wants to marry me.' He said 'Well Miss
Bowles, what do you think of him? ' I said 'I think he is a perfect gentleman.' I said 'he's
turned his house over to me and my girlfriend when Doctor rented it for us, and he acted
more like we were the owners.' So he said 'Well, Carrie, that goes to show that he has
confidence in you.'
So I said...then when his brother became ill, and finally died, he
didn't have insurance to bury him with. Well, I had saved up some money, so I paid for
his funeral.
? ? & Shade? ? ...I had them in Washington? ? 'cause I knew ? ? to ? ? owned this place
down in the middle of? ? Cliffside? behind Norman Hales? ? down West River Road
Q. Yes..yes...I know it.
A. We used to call him cus (? ) I knew him that well.
Q. What was his name?
A. Melvin. Last name was Melvin...we used to call him Mitch? ? Melvin...but we used...
Q. Is that on the water?
A. On the water...and he had horses. And of course my father had given me a Texas
pony, oh I guess when I was eight years old, and I loved horse-back riding. Mama made
me a riding habit, with a skirt with the saddle on the side. I was a regular tomboy. So
then of course 'Brune? ? had died five years ago, I didn't have another horse. And so Mr.
Melvin... they would come down...always come to the house and get a pie or something or
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some kind of take-a meal, he and his wife. So our friendship constantly grew. So then
when my first
husband's brother...we used to call him Pat, but his name was Alexander,
when he died, I asked Mitch? if he would bury him, and I would pay him because the
insurance that Mr. Ferguson down here (I think that was his name) used to be the
insurance collector. Do you recall him?
Q. No. No I don't know that Ferguson. Had a Ferguson, but I'm not sure he was in
insurance...ever in insurance. He was with the Thomas Lumber company...different
Ferguson...Judd? ?
A. He was with the "People's", and they had...Miss Francis had him, for herself and my
husband and his brother.
Q. They always had insurance...always had somebody selling insurance...everybody did it.
A. And so...when I contacted him 'cause his name and phone number and everything was
on the book. When I contacted him he said 'this insurance hasn't been paid up for I think
two years...something like that.' ? ? out of benefits? ? So then he started crying. He said
'What in the world am I going to do? I just don't want to borrow any more money, if I
can find a place to bury my brother.' So I said 'Well, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll loan you
the money', because ? I had? my college money I had saved. And Mr. Mitch? charged
me
$50 0 and I gave him a decent burial. And so at that time I don't know whether the
other relatives had it or...but nobody came up with any money.
Q. What year was that?
A. That was, let's see, '38 or '39 I have it listed in...
Q. That was the Depression?
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A. It was...it really was. And the family Bible I gave to Daisy Thompson? ? , my brotherin-law's daughter, because she had more children.
Q. Do they still have that Bible?
A. I think she still does.
Q. Daisy?
A. Daisy Crowner Thompson. And so she lives on Cedarhurst Road, you know. So she
was my brother-in-law Charles Crowner's daughter...Daisy and Helen...you've seen
them...two beautiful girls. And she and her husband see to it that I get to and from the
store, now and then
They're very kind to me.
Q. Isn't that wonderful
A. Because I know they can't run on water...cr can't run on water
Q. It would be a good thing if we could. Because of where we live and all this rain
we've been having!
A. Right, right.
Q. What year did you marry Mr. Crowner?
A. In 19... Let's see...was it 1950 ? I will...Well Daisy has it in the book, and I think I
have it over there [ Starts to get up from her chair.]
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Q. No, that's all right...that's OK...
A. 19 no, it wasn't 1950 ...it was much earlier than that. If I think about it, my second
husband was '51 that Would have been
Q. 18 something?
A. No, not 18..19...I think it was about 1929 or 30
Q. You were married to him for 12 years?
A. He died...
Q. And you lived right here in Shadyside?
A. Not this one...the one [ points to her right.]
Q. That's where we pulled in. [ Several people are talking all at once!!]
you were still there?
See, I thought
I hadn't realized you had moved out.
A. No. Well, I sold that...that was my house.
Q. I never got over it yet!
A. Yes. Well, I'll tell you. When my second husband and I moved to Virginia, I rented it
to a girl who's Rose Dennis' sister. She had eleven children. I told her how I wiped the
floors up [ Uses hands to demonstrate.] I don't throw the water on the floor, but I
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squeeze...I put the mop and then generously shake it up and down in the water, and then
squeeze the water. And then do the floors. They were ? linoleum on all the floors.
Apparently, her children just took the water and did one of those things [ Demonstrates
throwing something as an example!] . But before I rented it to her, I made a contract...a
written contract...that's one of my business ? ? and I told her, after telling her that and
after telling her not to put a lot of paper in the toilet. We had a receptacle wherein you
put the paper in that and everything / every day? was burned because the paper would
stop up the toilet. This was before the sewage thing came through.
Q. That's right.
A. And she called me up one day and said the toilet was running over, and she wanted
me to do something about it. And I told her, I think she could help herself more than my
coming up from Virginia, just so those kids could put paper in the suction pump...the pump
is out. And then after that, with eleven children and all of them wiping themselves, that
must've stopped up anything. So I said to put it in a paper bag, which I had a little thing
where you press on the lever and the top come up, didn't have to touch it, just drop it in.
And then every day, burn it and put a fresh bag in it. Well, they didn't do that. Then
they as I said about the washing the floors as I had instructed her, some of the kids - or
maybe she did it - threw the bucket of water on the floor and then it seeped down
through the old-fashioned lathes and loosened the mortar...' cause all the rooms were
covered...plastered, you know?
Q. Plastered.
A. Plastered, yeah. And so she wrote me, or called me, and told me that the plaster
was falling in the kitchen...in fact, all of it had fallen. So I thought that was unusual. So
we decided to come up here and see what was going on. So I called Mr. Dennis in
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Leonard...they were carpenters around here, you know, at Leather Neck?
Q. Oh, yes in-deed, I know Leather Neck>
A. Well, I told them...I said, 'I want you to meet me over here and go with me over to the
house and see what is what.' So Mr. ? Oringin? ? said to me, 'Miss Carrie, if I were you, I
wouldn't put any more plaster up here because what has happened is they've been
throwing water on the floor, and it's loosened up. And if you put more up there, it's just
'gonna loosen that. I'd just put sheet rock ...well, even sheet rock could be loosened...I'd
just put plywood up there.'
So she said 'if you just put plywood up there, I'm going to
report you to the Health Department.' I said, 'Well, Dolly, I tell you what. Get your
contract.' [ Chuckles in background.] She got it. I said, 'Now look in there...now you
read until you see 'if either becomes dis-satisfied, that we will let the other know we are
dis-satisfied and move out in thirty days.' So she got the contract. I pointed out to her...I
said 'now you're dis-satisfied because I'm not going to put good plaster up there again.
So you've got your
moving orders.' So I gave her a little note. I said 'Now you find
some place else to go. That'll save us both the expense of a lawyer. Because if I get a
lawyer, he's going to tell you the same thing. If you get a lawyer, he's gonna tell you the
same thing. So consequently, we'll settle that right now.' So then we did. And she
moved out.
And then when she moved out, Augusta Tenn (? ? ) and her husband came down to
Virginia to see me about the house and said, 'So I heard about this girl, whatever her
name was, I've forgotten now, has moved out of your house. And I said 'Well, she has 30
days to get out, but I guess she's moving now, so that's fine. She said 'We would like to
buy your house.' So I said 'Well, since I have a house down here - they saw my house.
I had five, big bedrooms. My son-in-law, my husband...my last husband, and a friend of
ours put all that up. A nice full basement... 45 feet wide and 60 feet long..
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Q. Now where was this?
A. In Fork Union
Q. Oh, I see...back home?
A. Back home. And so I showed it to'Tig...we call her Tig...her name is August
Tigge(? ? ), and I said 'now I built this home so that I could have it after I finished working
and I retired, ? ? personal care home...not a nursing home, but it would be on that basis.
It would be a personal care home.
Q. Ahead of the game.
A. You know, Mr. (? ) Minnie(? ) Childs...Loren? ? Childs? ? ..used to be in Annapolis?
well, his sisters came to my house...in fact, we came up and got them because they
wanted to go down and see where we lived. I had lots of dealings with them through the
time...being married to my husband. And Mr. Childs told my husband, he said, 'Jim, you
are very fortunate to have a young lady who will come in and take over, and this young
lady doesn't have to do it. She's genuine...don't you let her go.' I think Loren Childs kind
of boosted him into asking me to marry him. [ Chuckles.] And so then when we flew
down to Virginia.
Q. You and Jim?
A. No, no, no My ex-husband.
Q. Ok. Let's go back to your first husband, Jim. You lived in Shadyside?
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A. We lived here for twelve years. And then he died Christmas Eve...I think it was 1950
...Christmas Eve 1950 , and...
Q. While you were married to him, what was... he just did the fish business?
A. He did the fish business, then we operated the duck blind... had very good success,
because I would cook the breakfasts for the (? ) hunters.
I would cook the dinner... when
they'd come in, their dinner was here, and they enjoyed it so much they said 'this
certainly beats going to a restaurant.' Then I gave them all the food they'd want. I
cooked enough so there'd be plenty for them and the two fellas, three fellas, actually, who
used to help him. They were James (? )Brent, Best? Brent, and Howard Matthews. We
could bet on the three of them to help in the duck blind saves ? ? climbing in and out...
Q. It's hard work.
A. It's hard work. And I was trying to save him by having these fellas to work for him.
And we were very successful, and we had people who come from New York State ? ? .
I
think the only Southern state was North Carolina, but the rest of them was from
Pennsylvania, Baltimore and New York and New Jersey. But the house was filled up at
all times, and I would always have the big cup...the big coffee pot on the stove brewing,
so when they came in, there was a hot cup of coffee, and I'd get 'Half & Half' cream so
that... and they said they felt so good after it. And then some of them would stay over
night. They paid the extra....they paid me for everything, 'cause they engaged in a
sport...no need engaging in it if you can't bear the expenses. And they bore the expenses,
and it helped me, it helped them. And then sometimes, when they had a lot of
ducks...when they were sleeping, I was pickin' the ducks. I said 'Well, now when you go
home, you just... all you have to do is let your wives soak the ducks and then cook them.
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I would even tell them how to cook a wild duck. I said, Do you want the feathers? ' No,
they didn't want the feathers. I made a lot of pillows...a lot of pillows out of those
feathers. And so, consequently, we had very good success those years. And then with
the fishing, I used to go with him and his brother, Charles, Daisy and Helen's father, out
to the fish nets sometimes, like in this time of the year...
Q. Pound ? Net ? Neck?
A. Yeah, I'd go out to the Pound Net [ Shakes head in the affirmative.]
[ Slight 'blip' in tape.]
Q. ...major changes.
What would you, after all your experiences in Shadyside, what
would change about Shadyside? What would you recommend that Shadyside be changed
at all?
A. Well, let me see I think there should be a limit on these houses...so much... I think the
place is being too over loaded with houses, because from my observation ? ? ? next
door? ...lots of cars...room to put them. The next thing is from what I've been reading,
the schools, over-crowding of the schools and the earliness that the teachers and the
children have to get up to go to school, I think that's breaking down something some
where, because ...And another thing... I think that all of these youths should be given
some type of constructive work to do rather than running up and down the road just
playing. They're not learning anything, and they're not getting any where but in trouble,
maybe that would break...
Q. What age group are you thinking about there?
A. The teenage group.
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Q. Teenagers?
A. Umm humm. I think it would be very nice if we had something like the CCK, for girls
and boys, so that when they get out of school, they can spend a while in these places
where they would be learning something, having a good time, and helping. And be taught
how to help themselves. And this would...I feel, would reduce this dope and what not,
because they would be given a stipend of what they do, and teach them that they won't
get rich over night. Don't expect it and that to earn... to work with what you get. And
because the Bible says, 'by the sweat of your brow', you'll make your living. And I think
we need to go back to some of the Biblical quotations, treating your neighbor as you wish
to be treated, which means doing unto others as you wish to be done by. Getting your
education, and there's more ways than one of getting an education: teach the hands as
well as the feet... as well as the head, because you never know what might befall you in
life. And if you don't know how to use both, you're in tough luck.
Just like when I came here, I was ? ? travelling with? just my head alone? ? , but then Aunt
? ? Nick? ? taught me how to use my hands in a form that was helpful and it satisfied my
curiosity as to where babies came from...actually saw it. When I was in nursing training, I
was looking...once we had...I was in the O.R., and the doctor said, 'Miss Matthews, what
are you looking for? ' And I said ' I want to see for myself, how deep is skin coloring.'
He said "well, of all things'. He said, You know, we have the dermis and the epidermis.'
I said 'Yes, I know, but then after that what are you? ' Laughing.] He said, 'All just
alike.' (? )
So I was just teasing? , but I was being careful not to disrupt what he was doing, and I
saw for myself. He said 'we all have the same red blood.
I've seen patients of all
groups operated on. All the blood looked alike to me... it's red.'. So I said, 'Well, if it's
red, where do we get white and where do we get black from? ', because that's a mixture
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there Mixed with something else. I got down to the nitty-gritty of it And I said 'anytime
anything that's mixed with another color, it's not a solid whatever you're trying to say it is,
because and we went on from there to giveour... each of our opinions. So I said 'now I
don't know where the origin of the word 'black' comes to when you put all those who are
supposed to be black together, and you've got a problem
some is snow white, some
not so, some midnight call. How do you call a group 'black'? Same thing with white
people. Some are very fair, some are dark ...-they're not as dark as I am, but they are
dark. Now how do you figure that? He said, 'Now you gonna have to go a little further
than me..talk to the Man upstairs.' [ Laughter.]
So I said, 'Well as long Africans? ? as? ? God made all of us. He made us as we are for
his own reasons, and we can't change it, and I'm not gonna try to change it. So I,m
going to try to conduct myself so that I'll be welcome wherever I go and wherever I'll be.
And I'll be the same to other people. And I believe in the Golden Rule...treat me as I
wish to be treated, or I treat you like I did...the.same thing.
But nevertheless, that is a
part of my philosophy and I don't think I'll deviate from it.
Q. May I ask you something? After you...after Mr. Crowner died. Did you stay here in
Shadyside?
A. I stayed here about a year at the...And it was very funny...he and I adopted this boy.
Q. You and Jim adopted a boy?
A. Ugh huh. As a little child he was unwanted...there's his picture over your head [ points
with right arm] . He was two years and five months. And I...through a friend of mine in
Columbia Beach...she told me about this child, so Daddy said, 'You go up and see about
this child, because we would like to have a child.' So I said 'Well, we'll go up and then if
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he's
a child that you can manage, while I'm gone out on maternity cases, then this will
be fine. But I didn't want to get an infant because I knew he couldn't take care of it.
So
I went up to Washington and brought this child home. (His? ) mother said...just one of
these young teenagers, you know, having babies.
She said 'I'm glad somebody wants
him because I don't want a child.' I said, That's quite all right'..
So I brought him down here, and Daddy came out and he said 'poor little precious
thing',took him in his arms and patted him. And the first thing he asked for was a
hotdog...that's all he knew was eatting raw hotdogs. So we took him. He has never
asked 'where's my mommy? ' He has never shown any signs of wanting to go back.
So
then I went up to Mr. Childs and explained things to him and he wrote up the papers for
the adoption, and we adopted him legally.
And so then I said 'let's get a...choose someone to be his godfather and godmother,
should anything happen to us. So my cousin, who died two months ago, was his
godmother and then he said 'you know I think I'm gonna ask my cousin, Hiram, to be
godfather. Because I know he'll be a good godfather. I don't know of anybody else that
could be...that I could recommend'. So all right then...
[ Slight interruption as mailman comes to door and Mrs. Matthews thanks him, some
laughter, too.]
My husband told Matt...called him Matt...his name was Hiram that he would let him, in the
event anything happened to him, he asked him would he always look out for Tony, my
mother and me. Matt made that promise to him, but I didn't know it. But he used to tell
me that in the event anything ever happened to him, I had been such a good wife to him,
he didn't want any more of my life spoiled my marrying another old man. [ Laughter.]
So he said 'you try to find somebody who is more near your equal.' And the description
he was giving was like his cousin. So I said 'well I'm not thinking about any more
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marriages, maybe I'll go back and go to college.' And I kept that in my mind, and he said
'No, I want you to accomplish your dream; but at the same time, if some real nice person
comes and offers to take care of you and Mama, I don't want you to pass it up.
Well, not knowing what he'd said to Matt and Matt didn't know what he had said to me.
So when he died, Matt...I didn't know how to reach him to let him know that Daddy had
died, and Daddy was his cousin... his mother's first cousin. And so when the girl who he
was engaged to died in Boston, he came with her family down to Virginia to bury her.
Then he stopped by his aunt's bakery to see them, but on his way back to Boston. And
they told him about Daddy having passed. So then he said 'well, I'll wait to go back to
Boston tomorrow.' And he and his aunt drove down here. I had Tony at Johns Hopkins
to have a cyst taken off his hand and when I got back, Tony said 'oh Mama, there's Aunt
Lorraine's car. I'll bet she brought some buns from the bakery.'
So we got out of the car, and he rushed in the house, and when he got to the door, who
should meet us first was Matt. And he took...picked Tony up and kissed him. And then
when I walked in the house, he gave me a peck. [ Laughter.] So I said 'what are you
doing down here? ' Absolutely had no idea of seeing him again because I thought him
and the girl was getting married. So I said 'well what happened to Eva? ' He said 'She
died, and I went to Louise, Virginia to her funeral with her family. And Aunt Lorraine told
me about Cousin Jim and how he'd died.' And so then he said 'You know, Cousin Jim
told me something or asked me something, and I'll explain it to you after I get back to
Boston.'
So all right...whatever it was...I thought Daddy wanted him to take over an old boat or
something like that. So when he got back to Boston, he called me and told me what
Daddy had told him about...or had requested of him about looking after Mama, Tony and
me. So then he said 'Well Carrie, don't either of us have anyone now, and what...you
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give some thought to it.' And I said 'Well, right now, I can't think about anything except
the loss of him and so I just don't know where I stand now. I don't know what I'm going
to do'. So this went on, oh, for a couple of months. And then I began to... my pastor,
at the church that I was? ? always? ? Annapolis, Cecil Memorial, Rev. Johnson...I told him
about it, and he said 'Well, Carrie, you know a lot of these old dudes [ Laughter in
background.] are looking for nurses. And don't you accept any of them. That's all they
want. There's just one Mr. Crowner and he's gone. Don't you let any of these old dudes
fool you.' And I laughed and I came home and told my mother, and we had a big
laugh...everybody I told it to...we all had a big laugh.
So Matt called...he was calling three and four times a week, to make sure we were getting
on all right. And so I told him about it. And he said 'I'd like to meet this Rev. Johnson.
And I said, 'I think he'd like to meet you, too.' So then he came down one Sunday and I
carried him to church and introduced him to Rev. Johnson. And so then he told Rev.
Johnson, ' you know Cousin Jim asked me to look out for Tony, Mama and Carrie should
anything ever happen to him.' So Rev. Johnson sized him up and said 'You know, young
man, you meet my approval.' And from then on, when he went back to Boston, he'd call
us all through the week and talk to us. So I didn't have any mind to look any place else
'cause I figured I had it made. [ Laughter in background.]
So then, when he proposed to me, over the phone, I said 'well, you'll have to ask Mama.'
So he asked Mama and Mama said, 'She's a grown woman now. There's no need of me
saying no, because you all are gonna do what you want to do anyway.' But she said
'You know, in my home we didn't marry into the same family two or three times.' He said
'Mama, we're living in a different age now, and Carrie needs somebody, and so does Tony
and so do you.' He said 'Well, you remarried.' And Mama said, 'Yes, but I didn't remarry any body in my first husband's family.'
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He, Mr. Joe, at the time when Mama married him, she was working for the ? ? Luther Gadd
Movers, she was the housekeeper there. 'Cause she worked for your mother and father
for a while...for a short while when she was here. And then somebody I think one of the
Glovers, you know, the owners of ? ? Riggs National, there at 14th and Pennsylvania
Avenue?
Q. I know the banks but I don't know the Glovers.
A. Glovers...Mama had been working for them. But they had moved down to Orange,
Virginia, to their big estate down there, and Mama didn't want to go down there. And so
they recommended her to the...well, people in the Justice Department who handles Mr.
Hoover=s requests. And so then when...they said we have a lady who we think you'd
like a lot...she worked for the Glovers. So then Mr. Hoover said 'I'd like to interview her.'
So then Mama went up there for an interview, and they sent her because? ...They had
called down... Mama called down to get in touch with us? ? ...at the time I don't think we
had a phone going then, and they called down to 'Miz Leatherbury's store...from the
Justice Department...or come down...one or the other...I think they called? ? She ? ? ? we
didn't have a phone...'cause Mama, for some reason there. And so 'Miz Leatherbury
called said 'Miz Elizabeth, there's a man from the Justice Department wants to see you.'
Well, at that time, my stepfather used to play numbers, and Mama thought this is what it
was all about. So Mama said 'so send him down'...'cause she was in the clear but Mr.
Joe was trembling. And so, he was a nice old guy, but this was his habit before he
married Mama. And so when he came, Mr. Joe went upstairs. Mr. Reese...I can never
get his name... he said 'are you Mrs. Cooper'...Mama said 'Yes I am'. And then he went
on and interviewed her and old her Mr. Hoover needed a housekeeper, and she was
highly recommended to him. And so right from there, Mama...they accepted Mama
because of the fact that she was highly recommended, and Mama went to work for J.
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Edgar Hoover in his home as his housekeeper. So then Mr. Joe...
Q. J. Edgar?
A. J. Edgar Hoover...and around his house were so many little beeps and peeps and
lights coming on and off. And I'd go up their house, and I wondered what was going on.
And Mama said 'well, we don't have any guilty conscience, so...' But Mr. Joe was the
problem! He didn't want to stay up there because he felt that something was looking for
him!
[ Laughter in background.] So Mama said 'you go on right about your business.',
and he did. And so she just stayed right there until she got sick. And then I put her in
the hospital here where she died from diabetes; but they thought the world of her.
Q. Do you marry Hiram then and how long did you live here with him?
A. He and I were together two months less than 44 years...that's his obituary on my
organ there [ points with her left hand]
Q. And you lived in Shadyside?
A. No. I lived in Boston part of the time. And then we came back here, and then we
decided, after I had finished my nursing course, to go down to my farm in Virginia and
open a personal care home. That was my aim when I first...after I got my house built.
But when I got there, there were two ladies who had gotten together with HUD.
And a
Dr. Shepherd at University of Virginia Hospital about opening a clinic for three counties
that had never had a clinic before. And that was Fluvanna, which was my county, and
Buckingham and Cumberland County. And HUD approved it. And then when
HUD...excuse me...approved it. And then someone recommended me to Mrs. Wylie
about the nursing service...I had gone...I had gotten this job at the Cedars Nursing
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Home...I was charge nurse for two floors at the Cedars Nursing Home in Charlottesville;
and when I was approached about becoming, resigning from Charlottesville and going into
the Cumberland area, to be nearer to my home, Then I talked with the owner of this
nursing home and I told him how much I had enjoyed working with him, and so on, but
that this was nearer my home. And I was driving 74 miles a day, back and forth to
Charlottesville, so then he said 'Well Mrs. Matthews, if you ever want a job again, I'll see
that you've got a job here...if you ever want to work here again.', which I thought ? ? go
back. I expected he could understand easily having to drive eight miles a day round trip
to this home. So four of us nurses set up this clinic in Buckingham County, Virginia, and I
worked there till I retired.
Q. And what year was that...what years would that be?
A. My...74...1974. And then I was having trouble with my big toe, so instead of it getting
better, it... gangrene set in. And then it was treated for, oh, two or three years by this
podiatrist there in Charlottesville. But the toe just would not get well. So a friend of mine,
Dr. Corbett, he and I used to work together. He said, 'You know, Kay'...I allowed him to
call me Kay, for short...'I'm surprised your letting your foot go that long without coming to
me and asking me my opinion.' I have pictures that they send me Christmas time...I hear
from him every year. He said 'I'm gonna call one of my instructors in Hopkins and have
you to go up and have him look at that foot.'
So he did...a Dr. Ernest at Johns Hopkins So Dr. Ernest told him to tell me to come
prepared to stay a few days. And so I went up and this was in 1980 , and he looked at
me...took an angiogram of my foot and blood poisoning had come just about half way up
my leg, and he told me that if he amputated the leg now, he could do it below the knee;
but if I
wait another month, they'd have to go above the knee...they didn't know how far
up. So I cried and I prayed and what not but my inner sense told me to have it done
34
�[ Type text]
now.
So I stayed there, and the nurses were getting ready to go on strike at Hopkins. So he
said, 'Mrs. Matthews, I'll tell you what I am going to do is to transfer you over to City
Hospital. Now I know you don't know? ? ? very much? ? because old City Hospital was
terrible, but he said 'that's where my main office is, and I'd like to have you near me so I
can see you any time of day and see how...make sure everything is going along fine.' So
they transferred me there. They amputated...
[ Tape stops abruptly.]
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35
�
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Captain Avery Museum
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ORAL HISTORY
Heintz, William W
Captain Avery Museum
1998.012
Date of Interview: September 23, 1998
Name of Interview: William W. Heintz
Interviewed by: M. L. Faunce
Filmed by: George Daly
Transcribed by: Donna J. Williams, February 29, 2004
[Title page is first item on this tape, then the interview appears to be in progress.]
Q. September 1998?.... Bill was born in Washington, DC, in 1908, and ["blips" off and on in
beginning seconds of tape.]...and his roots in this area go back to the maternal grandfather,
William Wagner, who bought property at Cedarpoint, Bayfield... across the West River...? and
Cedar Point became known or is also known as Wagner Point. He purchased the property in
the early 1900's. His paternal grandfather was a fencing master at the Naval Academy, so Bill,
can you tell us something about those two interesting gentlemen?
A. Well, I really don't remember too much about my father's father. I only...he died when I was
a small boy, but my father's brother, George Heintz, also became a fencing master at the Naval
Academy. So there was a fencing master at the Academy of Heintz for fifty years. My maternal
grandfather, William Wagner, was a very...? man to remember. He was a gunsmith and an
expert shotgun shot(??). And he had a gun store and a hardware store on Second & Pennsylvania
Avenue, and many of his clients were senators and representatives. And he was a good friend of
John Phillip Sousa. So, all of these...in the old days, you know, they had an old pot belly stove
in the store, and all these fellas used to gather round the stove and swap hunting stories. And my
grandfather, William Wagner, then decided to retire when he was still in his fifties, and he found
this place here at Shadyside, called Cedar Point. And he bought Cedar Point in about 1912. I
used to, when I came up from Florida, I used to go visit Miss Ethel Andrews, and Miss Ethel
liked to tell the story about her father used to brag about how he "cheated" Billy Wagner when
he sold him Cedar Point for $3500.00., and he well now ?? bought the same property years
before bought it for $17.50. [Laughing.] Well, anyway, my mother had six sisters and one
brother.
Q. What was your mother's name?
A. My mother's name was Emma Lillian Wagner Heintz, and my mother was an artist. She was
deaf, so instead of sending her to high school, they sent her to Corcoran Art School. If you'll
look on the wall back there [pointing] you'll find a picture, an oil painting, an old man lighting
his pipe. If you like, I'll show it to you later, one of the paintings which she did. And I have
some other paintings upstairs and my sister has some of her paintings, too. But after I was born,
�she never painted any more. So I guess she was too busy raising two kids [laughing].
Q. And your siblings' names...your brothers' names?
2.
A. I don't have any brothers. I have a sister. Her name is Ruth Lillian Heintz, and she's married
to Walter Windsor, and they, too...they have a place in Florida near me and I visit them quite
often. She cooks me dinners quite a lot of times. She was here not too long ago, she and her
husband Walter, and they've already gone back to Florida.
Q. I know you have a lot of later memories of Cedar Point, but what would be an early memory
of Cedar Point?
A. Well, I grew up there, and we used to go to...used to come to Cedar Point, early in the
summer, soon as school was out. And my mother would take...and my father would hop aboard
the WB&A train, and we would go to Annapolis, changing at Annapolis Junction for our luggage
and the dog. Then we would walk from the terminal at the foot of Main Street to the steamboat
wharf where we would board the 'Emma Giles', the steamship that came down here. And my
grandfather would meet us at the steamboat wharf in a rowboat, and then we'd spend the
summer. My cousins also came down and there we grew up.
Q. Very pleasant days.
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Bill, your father was a lithographer in Washington, DC, and that was his profession and the
field that you also followed. Your father advised you to study chemistry and you did at the
University of Maryland, and you also played a little football there. You want to tell us just a
little something about your father?
A. My father was not a very...he was a small man. I'm a lot larger than he was. He grew up in
Annapolis and, in those days, they didn't have very good milk, and so forth. Children didn't get
the vitamins and so forth that children do now. My father was bout 5'8, I think. He was a very
moral man and he trusted everyone, but if they ever ?forbade?? their trust, he'd never have
anything to do with him. [Laughing.]
Q. I know that you had made...bought the property Mayfield/Bayfield ? after WWII, around
1946, and you raised your children here, Dick and Judy. And you said to me that nothing's
changed in changed 50 years. Tell us a little something about when you first bought Bayfield,
about your life here.
A. Well, my father had built a home in Scotland Creek which now is owned by Sweet Oak. We
2
�tore the old house down and built a new one, a big stone mansion. My father... what was it you
wanted me to say?
Q. Oh, you said that very little has changed here, since you lived here for about 50 years.
A. No, that is true. When we lived at Shadyside, I always admired this big old house I could see.
So I... so I remember once when I was about 18 years old, I rowed across the river and was
3.
squirrel hunting in the woods here. All of a sudden, it was this big white house, and I dove back
in the woods. I was afraid somebody might see me. So then I didn't realize the people who built
the house never came down here very much. Any way, that was the first time I ever saw this
house.
Q. You didn't forget about it?
A. No. After the war was over, the Glover who owned this whole property of 200 acres asked
his son if he wanted it. His son did not. So he put it up for sale, and it was bought by a
conglomerate of local people, including John Thomas and Capt. Eddie Smith of Galesville.
And, man I one time came down, I think it was New Year's Day it was a nice day, and we drove
down and visited Marjorie and Carroll Smith, and Margery was quite excited. She said "Oh, we
just bought Bayfields. Would you like to see it?". Anday said, "we'd love to see it." So we
came over, drove over here. The house was all dark, the walls were dark, the woodwork was
dark and the shrubbery on the outside had grown up to the second floor before we walked into
the house, you know. There was another couple with us, and Marjorie said, "Well, what we plan
to do was to sell the main house and sub-divide the rest into five-acre lots. And, the, this other
couple, the woman said, "Hummph! You couldn't pay me to live in this place; it's too lonely."
May said, "I could." I said, "You could? Carroll, we'll buy it. How much you want for it."
[Laughing.]
Q. Well, that's wonderful You were living in Washington before then? You were working in
Washington? And so, did that require a commute?
A. Yes, yes. We had just built a nice home in Arlington Ridge where it overlooked the...over
Washington, and so we sold that and bought this place and...
Q. What was the commute like into Washington those days?
A. Oh, about an hour, hour and a half, maybe, depending on the traffic.
Q. Would many people have commuted into Washington like they do now?
A. Well, when we bought this place, there was no road in here, except a dirt road. And of
3
�course, as soon as winter came, the bottom fell out of that. And we used to have... I would park
my...I would call May from the office, well, no I would go to Dixon's garage and call her. She
would come and get me in a war-time jeep which she'd bought and I'd have to leave the car up
there at the top of the hill before they put in a good road. [Laughing.]
Q. How long before there was a good road put in?
A. Oh, that was within a year. Yeah, they frst put in a gravel road. I always suspected, this
friend of mine, he used to shoot ducks with me, who had a lot of influence with the county, had
the road paved [Laughing.]
4.
Q. I know that your children enjoyed growing up here and enjoyed the water. What would they
have...what other things would they have enjoyed? What would have been their...Was there a
community life...a social life?
A. Well, I don’t know of any... Yes, the children had friends, and they...we had parties for them.
We’d build a fire in the fireplace here, then May and I would go upstairs and build a fire in the
fireplace in our bedroom. The teenagers had the run of the house downstairs.
Q. Do your children still live in the area now?
A. Yes, I gave my son half of the property, about five acres, and he built a house when he got
married, so...
Q. Is that Dick, your son? Your son's name?
A. ’Richard ..
Q. Oh, Richard.
A. Richard Louis Heintz, Louis Wagner's grandfathe’, and he has four children, two boys and
two girls. The girls both live in the area, down in the next county. They are married and each
has two children. So I have four great-grandchildren who come and visit me quite often. I have
to turn on the television and see 'Nickelodeon'‘while they ’it there and enjoy it.
Q. You're getting a’other education through your grandchildren?
A. Yes. The two girls... that are the two oldest, one that's Holly's an’ the ot’er...?... They I now
about eight years old, and then there are the younger boy about five and a little girl, well about
five. The other one is six, I believe. So they'll all come ’n...I'll be siIn’ here reading and I'll hear
a ra’,rap, rap on my door. I'll go to ope’ the door and here are four little shining faces looking up
4
�at me, saying "Candy, candy“! They know”who the sucker is. [Laughing.]
Q. And your daughter, Judy, lives somewhat nearby and she's done some ’nteresting things in
her life.
A. Judy, yes, was educated as a nurse at the University of Maryland. She joined the Peace
Corps...spent about two or three years in Africa... in the East Africa..what's the name o’ the town
or country? They've got contr’l over there. Anyway, the capitol is Arutia(?). And man in the
'60's, I went‘ov’r and visited Judy. She had a guide who was an East Indian with a turban and a
big long beard, to take us around and see all the animals in the animal parks. I took a lot of
pictures. I still have the slides of all the wild animals, the wildlife. They're really no’ as wild as
you would think because I have a picture of a lion who is as close to me as I am to you.
[Laughing.] And he just sleepily looked at me. Course, we didn't get out of’the Landrover
either. [Laughing.]
5.
Q. Well, it must've been a dry country and looking like a savannah, which we have a little bit of
this summer, we've had so little rain.
A. Yes. The Serengheti is a big plain in Africa...in East Africa, and all kinds of game in the
Serengheti. Then there is a big pond, not a pond, a big area where there was an extinct volcano.
And down in the summertime when it's dry all the animals go down there, and it's a very fine
place to see wild animals.
Q. Bill I know you've had two loves, at least two loves in your life: Your wife, May Rose and
sailing, and we'll talk about both; but you said May went along for the sailing and loved the
competition, and I'd like to talk about that. I'd like to talk about the fact that when you bought
this house, I think probably May's love of gardening brought it to life. Could you tell us how
she...
A. Oh, yes. She had actually, she had three gardens here. The one out on the waterfront, one
on the side which had all grown, and then back around the front of the house, we had an "L"
shaped garden…a very lovely garden. She was very prominent in the Four Rivers Garden Club,
and they used to have garden shows every year. She went in and always won a prize in the
garden show. She loved flowers so we built a green house for her. And that green house was,
even in the winter, that green house was ablaze with flowers.
Q. She must've had her work cut out for her initially when you bought the house. The house, I
guess, this house was a colonial and it was built in 1912, or something, I believe you said?
A. That's correct.
5
�Q. And...
A. Well, we spent the first summer really re-building the house, the whole house. The floors
were done over, completely painted, inside and out. Eventually, I had to replace the roof,
because the roof was old. But anyway, you know what old houses are? They always need
something.
Q. Was the house built by a local architect?
A. I don't know who the architect was. But it is a true colonial house with a center hall and two
front entrances: one on the river and one on the (?) drive(?).
Q. Of course in older days, there would have always been the main entrance on the river.
A. Well, not so you could notice it because people had to drive up to the house, and that was the
main entrance here. [Points to his right.]… decorative front entrance. Actually, the two
entrances are exactly alike. The river entrance front entrance, I mean.
6.
Q. I know that recently you loaned one of your model sailboats that you made to the Capt.
Salem Avery Museum for the model boat show, and it was the 'Albatross'. I think sometimes we
think of sailing as something that the leisure class does, but I think the roots of that and the West
River were really working and sailing craft are(?).
A. Well, when I was a late teenager, I guess I was maybe 18 or 19, we formed a group called the
"OODYC", over at Shadyside. That stood for "Our Own Damn Yacht Club". And then we held
a regatta which we had such stiller events as a (?) "Vanna Go Back Motorboat Race, which
meant that all the boats started out together, and then somebody fired a gun, and they turned
around and came back. And we also had another thing...we had a dog race, where we put the
dogs out on a barge out in the creek about 100 feet from the shore, and the children all jumped
up and down and scared the dogs. [Laughing.] I can remember Lucille Hallick now, who's now
a grandmother. Her dog won, and she had a big blue ribbon tied around and she was parading it
around. She was very proud of that dog. So we had fun in those days. Then our elders said well
the "OODYC" was not a very good name for a yacht club, so they persuaded us to change it to
the West River Sailing Club, so that's how the West River Sailing Club started. And the...
finally, the club needed a place so I bought...I found a place in Galesville that had just come on
the market. An old color man living there he had the right to live there as long as he lived. But
after he died, the lady... one of the ladies from Galesville called me and I bought it for the
club...and the clubhouse. So, that's how the West River Sailing Club came to be.
Q. Was that off of Tenthouse Creek?
6
�A. Well, you might call it that. It's the mouth of Tenthouse Creek. It's out off of Galesville
Point as you and
Q. Does it still exist today?
A. Yes. It's a very, very nice club now. Every Friday night they have a cook-out and I go to
the cook-outs, and I enjoy them, watching all the little children running around now and it's quite
a nice club. They've developed several classes of racing boats that they sail regularly now. The
Chesapeake 20's and the Depth 14's whatever number...
Q. In the earlier days you taught sailing and your daughter....
A. Well, when my daughter was about a teenager, we decided that we would teach...would
establish a so-called juniors league, and any of the children in Galesville that wished to join
could come. So, in my study there you'll see the back of me shouting through a megaphone to a
bunch of kids in 'Penguins'. So, these children are now 50 and 60 years old [Laughing.]
Q. Tell us about that Penguin Class of boats??
A. The...when I lived in Arlington, a group of us decided it would be nice... we were reading in
these yachting magazines about all the frost biting on the Long Island Sound. So we decided
7.
anybody who had a small boat, bring it down the tidal basin and we'll just sail it around for
winter. It was fun. So one of the chaps brought a beautiful dinghy but it's called a 'B.O.' dinghy.
It's lapstraight and it's varnished, and oh, we just fell in love with that. But we knew we couldn't
build such a boat. But we wrote to different naval architects to see if they had any plans for any
small dinghys; and among them was this plan, this dinghy by Phil Rhodes(SP). It was the... it
was built of lap straight but we decided we could build it out of plywood. So we bought 12 sets
of plans and we bought a lot of spruce and in my basement, I had a jigsaw. So for 12 boats
which we decided on 12, we didn't know what to call them, but my wife, May, said " well, you
plan to sail these boats as a second boat in the winter. Why not call them 'Penguins'? So that's
how Penguins got its name. Then in the second year, they had a race for them at the President's
Cup Regatta, and Herb Stone, who was the editor of "Yachting", was an Honorary Chairman,
and after the race was over I was introduced to Stone and said "You know, there isn't a national
class of dinghys that amateurs can build." He said, "You're right." And at that time, the
"Yachting" was in great competition with "Rudder" Magazine, because Rudder was selling a lot
of magazines promoting a snipe class. So Stone said "I'll send my assistant editor, Rufus
Smith, down in the spring and you get your boats launched down at the yacht club. He'll take
some pictures and write a story about them." So he did. "Yachting" published a very nice article
with pictures and a drawing of the boat and they were swamped with inquiries, where they could
buy plans for such a boat. So John called me and said "Johnny won't buy the plans from Rhodes.
You fellas print out the plans, full-size" ('cause he knew I had a lithographic business), and
7
�"we'll sell the plans until we get our money back, then the plans will belong to the Penguin
class", and that's the way it happened.
Q. You started with 12; about how many Penguins do you think are out there today?
A. I know there's more than 10,000; I don't know..but they're all over the world. They had an
international race over on the Eastern Shore this past summer and this was... one boat came from
Brazil.
Q. Capt. Dick Hartge was a member of that first yacht and sailing club here...
A. Dick Hartge was my best friend until he died. He was a Master Boatbuilder and a
wonderful friend, and we both were interested in hunting, and he was my hunting companion
along with (?) Early Phibben(?), and my son, and so forth. Dick had bird dogs and I had bird
dogs, and we used to go to field trials together and so forth and a man to remember. He just was
a great guy. I would go over to Dick's with my gun in the car and he'd be busy working on
something in his shop. I'd say, "Dick, let's go bird huntin' if your mother will let you." His wife
Jane, who was about 15 years younger than Dick, took offense to that. [Laughing.] Anyway...
Q. Did he go bird hunting?
A. He'd throw down his tools and get his gun and away we'd go. [Laughing.]
Q. Well, I know his son once said that for him, for his father that Dick Hartge, building boats
was
8.
a delightful obsession. I guess that was catching down here. You've built a few boats, too, and...
A. Just...you do things as a hobby I spent two years building a 25' power boat that had a cabin
on it and an eight-cylinder engine in it. But I didn't keep that too long. I have had, in my
lifetime, about twenty sailboats. It's a kind of an obsession. [Laughing.]
Q. Well, it's an obsession and kind of a competition and a rivalry, I understand, between the
boys of Herring Bay and the boys of the West River?
A. That's the way it started. The boys from Herring Bay had a 20' bateaux. A bateaux is a speed
bottom boat. How the French name became prominent among a bunch of local people in
Maryland, I'll never know. But any way, every body called a row boat a bateaux. The boys from
Herring Bay had this boat that was speed bottom, 20 feet long, and it was rigged like a log canoe
with three sails. And Dick Hartge built a boat and called it the 'Albatross', and I think Capt.
Oscar(?) sailed it. Capt. Oscar was Dick's older brother, you know. So they had a match race,
8
�and, of course, the 'Albatross' defeated the 'Lucky Strike' and then every body wanted an
'Albatross', so Dick built as many as twelve 'Albatross' and they became one design class. I
don't think any of them are in existence any more.
Q. No. That's a nice model that you made of the 'Albatross', and the name of it, I noticed, was
'MayDick'
A. 'May-Dick'.
Q. 'May-Dick'...And what does that stand for?
A. Well, that stands for my wife, May, and Dick my young son was three years old. [Laughs.]
Q. Well, there were some other classes of boats that came along after the 'Albatross'...
A. Well, had this regatta every Labor Day, and the featured race in the Labor Day was the "Free
for All". And these were 20 footers mostly and the ...the boys from Herring Bay brought a
couple of their boats, and then finally, Osborn (??) Owings and his friend...[voice in background
says "John Gregory"]...John Gregory built a boat designed by Mauer(SP??) A round-built 20
footer, and 'Vanity' defeated all the class of ??? boats. So then Dick Hartge tried to build a
round-bottomed boat to beat the 'Vanity', and among them was a boat called the 'Mermaid' which
had a very wide transom, and another one called 'Wings', which was a double-ender which none
of us could beat the 'Vanity'. But finally he built one called the 'Ranger', and which was not the
same as the 'Vanity' but it was a similar round-built boat, 20 footer, and that was competitive.
So, after that, a number of the round-bottom boats were built and they still are in existence today.
In fact, they had one of them molded, and now they are making them in fiber glass. So the 20'
class is still a flourishing class here in West River.
Q. Is that what is now called a 'Chesapeake 20'?
9.
A. 'Chesapeake 20', yeah.
Q. And it's been an exclusively 'local' class of boat, in other words, it's made locally for local
use, but is it now used other places....or the design?
A. No, it's still a local class. I don't think...Well, there was one came from over on the Eastern
Shore, and but that one finally was bought by somebody here from the West River. but it's still a
local class. They've got races for the 20 footers...'Chesapeake 20's'... all over the bay. It's a very
popular boat here. I had one, one time and it was called 'Windward'. I had it a few years and I
did very well with it. I won the High Point trophy with it, and I sold it and bought a 'Thistle',
which is a 17 foot open dinghy. Thistle was a national class, quite a fast boat, and this was
9
�competitive with the 'Cheapaeake 20's' who are 3' longer than they are. But they... so I became
national president of the Thistle Class for a couple of years but I attended a number of regattas.
Q. When you raced competitively, who was your crew?
A. Well, Dick was my crew and May went along, too. And one of my cousins, probably Dave
Wallace, could crew, too. And so Dick grew up sailing from the time he was four years old.
And now he races a 'Henderson 30', and which is hung in the (??) down here at the dock.
Q. And do your grandchildren have an interest in sailing, too, and great-grandchildren?
A. Well, they're still...my great-grandchildren are little. They're really too young yet. They're
just six years old, six and eight. Now they are now enlisted in the West River Sailing Club
Junior races...junior sailing...
Q. And you keep a close eye on that? Do you keep a close eye on that activity?
A. A profile?
Q. A close eye. Do you take a look at what's going on there, with the youngsters?
A. I don't follow them around, if that's what you mean. No. I'm happy to see that they're
interested. I'm sure they will be They're enrolled in the sailing class at the West River Sailing
Club. Sailing in these little tubs...what do you call them? I forget the name.
Q. Well, it looks like a nice sailing day out today. Is this the beginning of a period in the fall
when you have a lot of sailing in the river?
A. I think the Pirate's Cove has the Wednesday Night Series that's running now, the fall series.
There was a (??) and that's become quite a large fleet. I think it must be, oh, over 40 boats
sailing in different classes every Wednesday night. That's been going on for a number of years.
10.
Q. Are there still the 'Frost Bite' racing that's .....
A. I had heard rumors that the West River Sailing Club is planning on doing...having some
frost-bite races and penquins, but I won't be here, I'll be in Florida.
Q. Well, there's one other person that you knew and worked with and enjoyed and I think that's
Capt. Ed Leatherbury?
A. Capt.... First memory of Capt. Ed Leatherbury is when we...my mother and father...how we
got to Shadyside... we came down...I was about five years old, I think Capt. Ed had a boarding
10
�house, and we spent two weeks of the vacation at this boarding house. That... my father told my
grandfather about Cedar Point was for sale, and that's how we (??) Cedar Point. And Capt. Ed
was quite a character. He built bateaux, sailing bateaux, they were big bottomed boats, built out
of cypress, mostly an inch. In fact, I had one, 22' - inch and a quarter cypress. It was quite a
heavy boat but that was the first sail boat I ever had. So we would..when we started...the...to
gather on Labor Day, we had a free-for-all sailing boat race. Capt. Ed would put a great big sail
on his boat, and he'd beat us all, for two or three years. Suddenly, Dick Hartge came out with
the 'Albatross'. Capt Ed said "Damned scows, won't stand beaten up against the wall?"
[Laughing.]
Q. Those are great memories and wonderful times...
A. Not damned scows, "damed shells...won't stand beaten up." They were built out of five inch
cedar, while he was building them out of inch and a quarter cypress. [Laughing.]
Q. Those log canoes that he used to make, Chesapeake log canoes..were they for recreation or
sailing or were they for working?
A. What's that?
Q. The Chesapeake log canoe, that he would ....
A. Well, we never had any log canoes in West River, except I have a vague recollection that
Capt. Ed, at one time, had one. But the log canoes are mostly sailed over on the Eastern Shore.
And many of them now, you know, are very old. Log canoe is true to its name was built out of
five logs. Well there were three-log canoes and five-log canoes. And they actually hollowed
the...the bottoms were at least eight inches thick, and they were put together with wooden dowel
pins. They still race them over on the Eastern Shore. Of course, they're now 50 years old or
more, and since then, there have been a couple modern ones built. But, they have them over
there, they race them over there at the Oxford Regatta and the St. Michael's Regatta.
Q. Well, Bill, thank you very much. You've told us a lot that we'll remember, and the only thing
you haven't told us is how you got the name "Pickles"?
11.
A. [Laughing.] Well, how do you think? When I first met my wife, we...I took her to a dance at
the University of Maryland; I had just graduated. And we were dancing on the floor, and one of
my old football friends says "Hi, Pick...how you doin'?" She says, "What's this 'Pick business?" I
said that's short for 'pickles'. Everybody had a nickname when I played football. My roommate,
for instance, at that time was Jewish, and his name was Lombard. He was called 'Murphy'.
[Laughing.] So everybody had a nickname.
11
�Q. Well, thank you very much, Bill.
A. All right.
Q. How did we do George. [Voice replies, "Fine".]
Camera moves to a painting on the wall, possibly one Mr. Heintz's mother had painted? Then
Mr. Heintz's voice is heard as he displays photographs of sailboats and various nautical
wallcarvings, etc.:
A. So, then there's the model of the 'Chesapeake 20' that I own. This is the boat that somebody
gave me. Over here is the first ?cruising? boat I ever owned, the 'Westwind' which we won the
Chesapeake Lightship Race, down in the bay and out on the ocean and back up. That's a picture
of her up here. She was called 'Westwind'. Then there are a number of other boats here. This is
a one tonner that I owned with anotherguy. Well, there's an old boat that...she was an old
racing boat called the 'Chippewa' (??) I had that a number of years...she fell apart. So..and
down below is a picture of a power boat that I built...22' power boat. This is a quarter tonner,
this is what they call a one-tonner. One tonner is a boat that isn't exactly one ton but that's what
it's called; she was 38' long, and you can see her there with the 'Seneca' and ?grouper? Here's a
picture of Dick?? went to?? Bermuda/commuter race taken a? shot. The picture up on top there
is the original West River Sailing Club with all those little bateaux and ??? Large boat in the
front there is the May-Rose,II...the May-Rose II?? built. Sitting on a wharf and, apparently,
fishing in Croom, Maryland. All of the padding? on the mast have long since rotted out.
Grandfather and his son George, my father's brother, their sabres. The picture above is a picture
of my father poised with a foil, and as I told you my grandfather and his brother were fencing
masters at the Naval Academy. The picture up above there is probably the last picture of May...
Q. Can we talk about this middle picture? the middle one?
A. Oh, that's a picture of May and I in front of...side view of our Florida home. And the picture
above is the last picture of May before she died. We were at a...50th Anniversary ...and they
asked everyone who had been married 50 years to come up and tell how you stayed married for
50 years. I said, 'You never go to sleep mad with each other.'...and May laughed.
Q. Grandchildren...great-grandchildren?? [Camera pans in on other photographs.]
12.
A. Well those are two of my great-grandchildren. That picture was taken several years ago;
they've grown since then. [Camera focusses in on other area]... And these are all second place
trophies. Then during the period when they didn't have silver they had to give trophies made out
of pewter....quite a few of them there. This picture here is a picture of the old dock down at
12
�Florida where May and I (??) and they're watching me put the sails up on the small boats.
Picture of our house down in Florida...picture up here was done by my mother...a charcoal...
where she's carved the head of the dog as well as the...her wood carving. Second-prize trophies
are smaller cups, where as first prizes were these sterling silver. Then there was a period when
you couldn't get silver and they had to give pewter, so these are all pewter. Down below here are
a number of other miscellaneous things. I don't know how many trophies there are. I have...I
took a number of them down to Florida. At the present time, I think my son has as many. He's
a good?? sailor now. [Camera shows panoramic view from window then moves outside to
front of Mr. Heintz's house and then out to the river. Then out to the dock to look at a sailboat.
Wind is blowing and prevents this transcriber from hearing what was said.]
Tape ends.
___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___
13
�
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Oral Histories - Voices of Shady Side
Contributor
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Captain Avery Museum
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1998012-Heintz-William
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Text
ORAL HISTORY
Brown, Lucretia
Captain Avery Museum
1998.011
#1998.011.003
Date of Interview:
November 4, 1998
Interview of Lucretia Brown
Interviewed by M. L. Faunce
Oral History Chairperson: Mavis Daly
Video by George Daly
Transcribed by: Donna Williams on December 12, 2003
Edited by:
Lynn DePont, February 14, 2004
[Some static, speaker starts, stops, starts again.]
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: We're here on the West River. Today we have Lucretia Brown
who is an ancestor of Capt. Salem Avery; she was born here, and is actually fourth
generation. Lucretia, can you tell us a little bit about your parents and tell us a little
something about what they did?
Lucretia Brown: Well, my mother was a granddaughter of Capt. Salem Avery, and she
was born up around Galesville near Route 468. My daddy was born at Shady Side, and he
was a carpenter and he was one of the only carpenters, he and his partner Capt. Bill Appel.
And they developed a lot of Avalon Shores and Columbia Beach and Idlewilde and there
was small summer homes around here. I was born in July 10, 1922, and I was one of three
children and the baby of the family, and I lived across from St. John's Church, going down
the road before you take the County Road. And I went to the school on the corner. I could
walk to school and it was about a block away, and when the weather would get real bad,
some days my Daddy would have to take me to school on his back because I didn't have
any boots. And we played on the river. The ice was bad and we had wild, hard winters,
lots of snow and lots of ice, and that was our main source of entertainment.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: You said that you ice-skated on the bay and on the river and
you went sledding, for heaven’s sake. It's pretty flat area around here. Where did you
manage to sled?
Lucretia Brown: We would go about five miles up to the road where there is some hilly
country up there and take to the hills up there. We would also attach several sleds to the
back of one of the mother's cars of one of the children in the group, and about eight sleds
would be in the back of the car. We would just pull up to the Dixon's service station, which
is up in the Galesville area, and we would turn around and come home. We would, at the
1
�2
time, be about the only car on the road. We would build snow forts across the road and
throw snowballs. There wasn't anybody to bother us, like a car coming or anything. And,
one day when I was young and ice-skating and I fell down Parish Creek and I broke my leg
in four places And as I lay in the ice crying, everybody wondered what I was crying for. So
those were the things that we did.
�3
In the summer, we swam. Everybody. Then, we would take a rowboat and leave Parish
Creek, five of us girls rowed to the Rhode River and have a picnic and spend the day. And
one time we were there and the tide went out, and the boat sat on the sand bar. We
couldn't get out. Eventually, one of the fathers came and got us down and brought us
home.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well I hear you were a little bit of a tomboy? Is that true?
Lucretia Brown: [Laughing] Well, yes, there was hardly a tree that I didn't climb and I
lived across the road from the Leatherbury girl, Lavenia Leatherbury, and there was an
apple tree in my yard. And every morning when the weather permitted, I would go out and
get up in that apple tree and say "playmate, come out to play with me". And she would
come out on the porch and she would answer me, and that went on until 60 years and,
well, she's no longer here. It was fun. We probably had one doll baby for Christmas, a
stocking with a few oranges in it. My father would go to the woods to get the Christmas
tree and bring the mulch back and the tree would be in the living room, and we all hung our
stockings on the mantle piece, as we called it. I had a good home life, loving parents, I
worshipped my mother and loved my sister and my brother but, anything else? [Laughing]
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well you referred to those childhood days as the good days and
the fact that in those days children didn't have many toys to play with so you made your
way with what you found around the house.
Lucretia Brown: We used to play hopscotch, "run sheep run,” a lot of ball. "Annie Over".
I don't guess anybody's children today [would] even know how to play "Annie Over.” They'd
take a ball and throw it over the house and trust the person on the other side when they
caught it, they’d say they caught it, and then they would run after you, and you would run
so that they couldn't catch you.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: You grew up in the same house that your father built? Is that
right?
Lucretia Brown: No, he didn't build that, no. I grew up in an old house.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Did you grow up in the same house that you live in today?
Lucretia Brown: No, I did not. I lived there about three years after I got married in 1950
and I live up on 468 now. And, after we had to sell the house, it took me a year, when I'd go
down the road, I couldn't even look over there because it just broke my heart to think I
wasn't there any more. But the apple tree is still in the yard. So, I went to Shady Side
School. Miss Ethel was one of my teachers; and she was a strong teacher, I can tell you.
And from there to Southern High School and I went to work with the National Youth
Administration [NYA] for $14 a month. I worked at the Hall of Records in Annapolis and
also at Southern High School.
�4
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Now that was during Roosevelt's administration?
Lucretia Brown: That was the Roosevelt administration. Yeah, and the CCC, yeah, FDR,
the NYA, and a lot of programs, too. And, eventually, I went to work for the government in
D.C. during the War.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: They were lucky; they were needing secretaries.
Lucretia Brown: It was really easy to get a job. I ran into a Mr. Frank White that came
down to the Rural Home Hotel, every summer, he and his wife, and he worked with the
Department of Agriculture and I just talked to him one day and he said "come on over" and I
took the test, and I went to work right away.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, transportation was a little different in those days, and I
guess the roads into Washington from Shady Side were a little different. How did you get
to work?
Lucretia Brown: I would take a ride with anybody that was going over that way, which
wasn't that easy for me, believe me. It was long. You'd go to Upper Marlboro, and go over
one bridge, 14th Street Bridge, and then on to the Department of Agriculture. Many
evenings, I would stand out on the sidewalk and wait for my ride to come, and he would just
be an hour or two hours late, and I'd be standing out there waiting for him, but then it was
safe those days to stand in the street. And then also I had a lot of friends over there, and
quite often I stayed and they had a house and there were about eight girls in there, and
some nights, I just didn't even want to come home. [Laughing]
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: In that period, during the War, would there have been many
people who would've come from this area who went into Washington to work and Baltimore
to work from that distance? It was a bit of a distance in those days.
Lucretia Brown: Yes. Actually, there weren't a whole lot of people down here at that time,
and there was a lot of commuting. The thing that was hard was getting somebody who
could work the hours that I did.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Tell me something about your husband and how you met him
and the family that you came to have with him.
Lucretia Brown: I met my husband through a girlfriend of mine; she was a friend of his.
And, he came down one summer with her, and I met him, and he never missed a weekend
coming back to Shady Side again because he came from Catonsville, and he just thought
he was in heaven when he was down here. So we went together for three years and
married. I have two sons. One now is 44 and one is 41 and I have 6 grandchildren.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Your husband's name was Howard?
�5
Lucretia Brown: Yeah, Howard Brown, and my sons, Mark Brown and Curtis Brown.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: And your grandchildren? [Laughing]
Lucretia Brown: Wow! [Laughing]. Yeah, I have one named Jeremy, who is 18 or 19.
19! And Ricky, who's 16, and Jimmy who's 14, and Kelly, who's 13 and Leanna who's 6
and Leif Brown, who is 3 years old. Any age you want, just come up and see me. And
they are the delight of my life. They've been very, very good to me. When I was widowed,
I had the family there, and it took care of me and it helped me. Sustained me - let's put it
that way.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: So your husband liked Shady Side so much he decided he'd
make his life here with you?
Lucretia Brown: That's right. And, then across from the Rural Home Hotel, there was a
dance hall, and it had a post office in it and rooms upstairs. And he used to stay, if you saw
Miss Mary, and she would have been Miss Ethel's sister-in-law, and he used to have a
room there and stayed there. We went on a lot of boat regattas, and we went fishing, and
we just had a lot of fun together.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: You have another family connection and that's in this home that
we're sitting in today, the Capt. Salem Avery Museum, and you didn't know too much about
Capt. Salem Avery when you were growing up but you certainly have found out a lot about
him today. Tell us a little something about how this whole project here and the starting of
this museum happened?
Lucretia Brown: Well, to be honest with you, I really feel great about this place. I'm proud
to be a part of it. I'm proud to work in it, and the people down here are just wonderful. I've
never had to research this part of the family because all I've had to do is go back and read
one of those books back there and it's all there for me.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: You're the Health Manager here. What does that mean?
Lucretia Brown: Well it means most Sundays I come down here, and I'm also Jesse
Creager's kin. And the Health Manager just makes sure that there's supplies here, and
well, I did pretty good here today by cleaning all these windows.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: No wonder I can see outside, so nice on this beautiful day.
Lucretia Brown: I'm so grateful to have this place. Everybody loved George and Mavis
[Daly] and they have done so much, and everybody has done so much. [Background
doorbell distraction – “somebody’s trying to get in.”]
�6
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: As this museum has gotten started and it's well on its way now
and getting to be quite well known now in the area, you've learned more about your family?
Lucretia Brown: Yes. The Family Bible that's in the living room back there, all I have to
do is open it up, and I can see all my aunts and uncles and cousins and the day they were
born and the day they left this world and it really means a lot to me.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Capt. Salem Avery was, of course, a waterman. Is that a
tradition that continued in your family or some of the ancestors who stayed here and lived
here in Shady Side?
Lucretia Brown: I really don't know, I really don’t know. I know that there were some
watermen in the family but they were from my father's side.
[Slight pause in the tape.]
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Lucretia, I know you've always believed in having fun, having a
good time, and you've shared your personality of enjoying that with everybody you've ever
come in contact with, so I know that you had a lot of fun on the evening of your 75th
Birthday when you had a party right in this same room in the Capt. Salem Avery Museum.
Tell us a little something about that evening. Was it a surprise?
Lucretia Brown: It was one of the biggest surprises of my life. And, it took place right
under, as the old expression goes, right under my nose and I knew nothing about it. And
when I eventually came down here, they held it here, and the kitchen was busy, and I
looked in the door and I saw my grandchildren and I saw my sister and I said "what's my
family doing down there?" It didn't dawn on me what it was, and all of a sudden, it did hit
me, what it was, and I had old, everyday shorts on and my son had tried to make me
change my clothes before I left home, and I wouldn't do it. I just wanted to get down here
because Mavis Daly wanted me to come down and check something out. So I went down
to do that. But there were, I think, 75 people here and a lovely dinner, and a really, really,
really great evening. I'll never, ever forget it.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, I guess you're going for your 100th because that was a
few years ago and you're active and you're busy and you enjoy just about everything you
do.
Lucretia Brown: I may not go for my 100th because I don't want to be the only one down
here. [Laughing]
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well I think you'll have company.
�7
Lucretia Brown: It was an excellent evening. At one time in the community, we had the
first doctor in the community was Dr. Grant and Ann, and they lived next door to me where I
live now. And they've been gone for these many, many years, and they came down to my
birthday party. Of course, I've been friends with them all these years. But they were here
and family and it was quite, quite a nice gathering. All my friends from the Heritage were
here. And I didn't get any birthday presents, though, but I really didn't want any.
[Laughing.] It was fun, it was great fun.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: It just seems like whether you're looking back or whether you're
enjoying today, that there were so many nice memories. We talked a little bit about the fact
that there were children in your era who really didn't have a lot of toys and entertainment
was a little bit limited, but you did have some things that you could do, and what about the
steamboat that would come and dock here? Tell us where that is.
Lucretia Brown: The Steamboat came, and it went to Galesville and Chalk Point and to
Shady Side and went down to Steamboat Road. I do not know if I really remember ever
seeing it, but I think I've heard so many stories about it that I probably, in my mind, have
seen it. But, not living here on the water, everybody else saw it, but being out where I was,
I guess I just never came down.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, you were just a little ways down the road?
Lucretia Brown: I was just a little ways down because I know from friends of mine who
lived on the water that everybody would yell "Steamboat’s coming, steamboat’s coming,”
and everybody would run to the banks. I can remember going down Steamboat Road with
Mr. Andrews, who had the Rural Home Hotel, when he went down to pick his boarders up.
So I also imagine that I was in the boat but I sincerely can't remember ever seeing it down
there.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: The boarding home gave some life and interest to the
community that everyone seemed to enjoy.
Lucretia Brown: If you lived next to the Rural Home Hotel, in the summertime you did not
need to do anything else for entertainment. They took the boarders in everyday at 2 o'clock
for swimming, and in the evening after dinner they took them for a boat ride to watch the
sunset. And I was on every trip. I had meals, I spent the night at the hotel, had friends
there, and I never had to pay. [Laughing.]
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: And it was fun?
Lucretia Brown: And it was fun! It was wonderful growing up down here then. We used
to play ball in the field between the hotel and my house. There was a ditch between the
two places, and I always had the board there. All I had to do was step on that board and
across the field, and then I was at the hotel. We played croquet and tennis and went
�8
crabbing a lot. Crabbing had a lot to do with our growing up. And the hotel always had
rowboats there. We never needed a boat ‘cause the hotel had them there. We would swim
out near Parish Creek, used to climb up the buoys out there and get to the top of them, wait
for a boat to come by, wait for the wake to go by, and as soon as that boat would go by,
into that wake we would jump. Now, if you went out there, you'd get run over by the boats,
there's so many.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Did somebody teach you how to swim and crab, or is that
something you just kind of learned yourself?
Lucretia Brown: Just something we kind of learned. When the sea nettles would get
bad, the boarding boats would go over to Beverly Beach. I think it cost us a quarter to get
in. And as we started growing up as teenagers, Beverly Beach was the place to go
because, of course, it was on the water and they had music and everybody gathered there.
If my mother would let me go….
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Would you mostly go by water and not by car?
Lucretia Brown: No, we would go by car, then.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: And that took you about how long?
Lucretia Brown: About a half an hour. And Sunday traffic, you tried not to go near
Annapolis on Sunday on account of Beverly Beach traffic. Of course, no stoplights were
available. It would probably be the sum of about 30 cars coming out of Beverly Beach on
Sunday evening. We thought that was a traffic jam.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Where were they going?
Lucretia Brown: Going back toward Washington and Annapolis, going home. It was quite
a place. Because they had a net all around it for the sea nettles. And a lot of times we, as
kids, we would row over there and see if we could cut a hole in the net and go through that
way. But we didn't do it very often ‘cause they would watch and not let us in.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: And they had some entertainment there and a pavilion, I
believe?
Lucretia Brown: Yeah. They had a pavilion there and, of course, in the water they had
sliding boards and things any child would like, and sand and picnics.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, there were a number of those communities that had
entertainment or a public beach along the bay, close to here. Could you name some of the
others that were nearby that people might have gone to?
�9
Lucretia Brown: Well, there was Triton Beach and Mayo Beach which were up in that
area, but the main one, when we were growing up, was Beverly Beach. I don't think I'd
ever been to Triton and Mayo, but I know they were there.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce:
beaches?
They were public beaches but they really were private
Lucretia Brown: They were private, yes.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: You had to pay admission to get in?
Lucretia Brown: That's right. Beverly Beach, all had big signs out there with "For Gentiles
Only" on them.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: They were residential beaches, too.
Lucretia Brown: Yes. Bay Ridge was always a good beach, but we couldn't ever get up
there because of transportation. As we got older then and we had children, then we took
them up there. We also went to Chesapeake Beach. Chesapeake Beach was a great
source of entertainment for us, at least once a summer. They would have the Farmers’
Picnic down there, and all big families then. My mother was one of ten children, and
everybody would get together with their picnic baskets and their fried chickens for supper
and meet down at Chesapeake Beach around the 4th of July. And then the train would
come down and we could see that coming. So, anyway, it was great growing up here.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: They were all private beaches, of course, and they did have a
policy that not everybody agreed with, but the owners enforced a certain policy about
admission, and, actually that, because of that, I understand the house, the home itself is
now the Capt. Salem Avery Museum, was owned initially by Jewish families, small groups
of people, who had a fishing lodge, or something like that here. Is that a little bit of the
heritage of this particular building we're in today?
Lucretia Brown: I think a lot of the good things have happened here, and the one thing I
will never forget, one Sunday I was here and this lady, I guess around 50 years old came
in, and she was the granddaughter of one of the ladies that belonged to the lodge. And she
used to come down here with her grandmother. And, when she came in and knew that
she could get back in this building, she was very emotional. And when she went on the
tour, she cried the whole time because she was so happy. To me, that was really, really,
really, really rewarding. [lots of static and noise in the tape at this point]. In fact, we've had
several people come in. And back where the gift shop is where her grandmother's kitchen
was and where she got her food from her back there.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: So you've had continual visits by people who have known
something particular about this house or something about the area?
�10
Lucretia Brown: Well, I have found that having lived here all my life, there have been
people that have come back here and the fact that I have been here, I have been able to
help them, or direct them to who they're hunting for. Lots of times I'll go make a phone call
and say "hey, somebody's coming up to see you", and I like doing that. That makes me
happy. And I have been known to, rather than point it out to them, where they're going, I'll
say "follow me and I'll take you there". And then, of course, you wouldn't be too far away
and you'd come back here.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, at one time, I guess you felt like you knew everybody in
Shady Side?
Lucretia Brown: Yes, I did. So few. Like when I graduated from high school, this is
bringing all the kids in from Linthicum and Harwood and all those areas, there were 28 in
my class. And probably, in Miss Ethel's school, there were about 60 children in the 1, 2, 3,
4, 5, 6 grades, if that many, really. So you knew all the families. As the old saying goes,
everybody was related to everybody. You tried not to tell on your cousin, I guess. So
anyway, but it was fun. I love the fact that I grew up here. Didn't have any electricity in that
house. One of our sources of entertainment, a girlfriend would come up and spend maybe
a Friday night with us. One of the things we did for entertainment was that we'd get a
glass, a white handkerchief and a nickel. And we would do magic tricks with it. I was
talking to her about that the other day, [laughing] and I said “what kind of tricks do you think
we really did, wrap that old nickel up in that handkerchief and do something with it
anyway?” But that's what we did.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, you later worked for the high school, so you kept in touch
with some of your teachers and with some of the people you worked with at the school for
many years?
Lucretia Brown: As of two years ago, I had three teachers, now I have one. And she lives
in Montgomery, Alabama, and I'm still in touch with her and I have been out of school since
1939, so I think that's a pretty good record, isn't it? That’s pretty good.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Yes it is.
Lucretia Brown: At my age to have had three teachers. I went to Montgomery, Alabama
to see her one time, during the War and I was talking about that today. I drove down there
at 50 or 40 miles per hour I think. It took almost three days to get down there because gas
was rationed, I think it was 35 miles an hour, the speed limit, so anyway….
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, you had a nice relationship with the school and you later
worked for Southern High School. You were kind of a - I think you used this - kind of a “cutup” - used it as your 'modus operandi', kind of keep things going and lively, and tell us what
you would do to your poor principal who you were supporting there.
�11
Lucretia Brown: You mean like when I worked as a cashier, or with the secretary at
Locust Elementary School?
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Yes, at the Elementary School.
Lucretia Brown: Well, Betty Morrill was the Principal and was also a very good friend of
mine, and still is, and I would pull tricks on her. Like, if somebody would come in there and
she would be talking, and I would write some silly little note and put it in front of her and she
couldn't keep from laughing.
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well you would put something in front of her and you would say
"Pardon me please. Would you sign this at your convenience?" You were just trying to
keep her perspective when things were a little tough; you would try to have a little joke for
her, maybe to get her through things?
Lucretia Brown: If somebody came in and I knew they were salesmen or something and
they wanted to speak to her, she was younger than I, and I would say "well, that's another
secretary, Mrs. Morrill isn't here today.” Of course, that would be the principal, sitting over
there. We just did a lot of things. We had an excellent school, excellent principal, and it
was 24 years of pleasure working there. So now that I'm getting old.....
Interviewer M.L. Faunce: Well, I don't believe that! But, if you don't have any tricks for us
today, I'll just say what a pleasure, Lucretia, to spend a few minutes with you talking about
Shady Side, talking about the Capt. Salem Avery Museum, and you've given all of us some
good memories to remember. Thank you very much.
Lucretia Brown: Thank you, very much, and thank you, cameraman, and please...[tape
stops].
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
�
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Oral Histories - Voices of Shady Side
Contributor
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Captain Avery Museum
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1998011-Brown-Lucretia
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/13888/archive/files/b9dc9c9f5f57a2ee4f8c0db903a12454.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=Dw%7E4blQ9Y1c9naP6Y4cLVR3eUmKUWsLWx12p8S-a7R9gfTwlz8ejmnlsKO17zeGDRHpC9hJSmhccA0QgnYNFedZtHEUH9ylJPkRku1kLsESj%7E-E9%7EUxHP32igjnVBZ0oF1aryluj5ykvUa9r4mjvhWkT1sYSLxkuJ0WZGmrROs0cWkw9NwY0BG2wGZ%7EQsE6wD93L0pFLukihNDsShUYzLhFMA32f4A3i6WE8fikijD9XotK82sBUVsgPiZ1e%7E2Xb373npSPQP7D3AsO8XDvr0Uks1-PhDt0lFtSb4O0axfLqX57O2MpSlRCouBVZ1KoR-Il9hHYUBai72zfVUlaE4w__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
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PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY
Crandell, John
Captain Avery Museum
1994.008
VIDEO: John Crandell: A lifetime neighboring the waves [1994]
Narrated by: John O. Crandell
Filmed by: Timothy Bladen
Transcribed by: Christina Davidson: Feb 2006
[TITLE: “John Crandell: A lifetime neighboring the waves”]
[A Video By Timothy Bladen]
[Voice of John Crandell]
[ St. Matthews United Methodist Church] [00:20]
I’ve been working …for 75 years. In 1918 when this. . . when Mr. Williams (?) started to build the St.
Matthews Church. I got a job with him. . . and I had to tear it down. After we tore the old church
completely down to its foundation, we used a portion of this foundation and we started to put the new
church on that, plus we had to add a great deal to it – to make it as large as the new church was
going to be. And… I stayed there until it was completed, inside and out, plus the steeple.
[Concrete bridge: Route 234, Chaptico, MD] [1:09]
We… dug the footings by hand and we drove the sheetings (?) around the footings with a big wooden
maul. The majority of it… the forms… was built right on the job, except the arch timbers and…
Captain Dick Archy (?) – he had a band saw in his boat-building place, and he sawed the arch
timbers out for us. He was born (?) down West River and he hauled them back down, ready to set
up. And then, then we… got ready to pour the concrete, we done it with a one-bag mixer. And we
shoveled the material in with just ordinary shovels, counting the shovels for – so many shovels full of
sand, so many shovels full of gravel, for one bag of cement. Throwed the water in there with a bucket
and wheeled it out on the job and dumped it. And we put in the back fill, and built the road back over
the bridge with a… horses and slip scoops (?).
[Concrete bridge: Route 547, Kensington, MD] [2:53]
We did that one with a much more up-to-date…piece of equipment. We had the crane to come there
and dig the footings out for us, and the ground was hard enough on the low side that it wouldn’t cave
in, and on the upper side of the bridge we had rock to set the concrete on. And the… we had a twobag mixer with a skip (?) that dumped the material in the mixer… and a bell on it that rang every time
the drum turned over so many times… we could dump it out. We couldn’t dump it out ‘till that bell
rang. The slab had close to 900 bags of cement in it. We worked 28 hours to pour it, without
stopping. We had a shanty built out on the job, with a cook (?) in it – every four hours, half of us
would stop and go ____ and the other half would keep the concrete rolling as good as we could. That
way we didn’t have a cold joint.
[Concrete Bridge: Route 235, Mt. Vernon, VA] [4:25]
[head shot: John O. Crandell speaking] [4:55]
When Gordon fired me, he told me to get my tools, my clothes, and go, he didn’t need me anymore.
Well, I went out and got my tools, gathered up everything I could find… I needed, that belonged to me
1
�[Type text]
and…uh… was putting it in the car when here comes Edwin out with all of his stuff. ‘Cus Edwin said
he wasn’t going to work either if I didn’t work. [picture of Edwin A. Crandell] Edwin and I got
together a week or so after we was… after we had some time to think it over. And we came up with
the thought that probably we should get somebody to back us… and… go to work out on our own.
We asked a Simmons, which was uh… Nebbit [picture of John Nebbit Simmons] he was the
oldest one. And he was the… I guess the best business man in the bunch, anyway (laughter). So,
he said “sure I’ll back ya – under one condition – that you hire Mr. Brundege to be the bookkeeper,
timekeeper and keep things straight.” [picture of Clarence Brundege] So that… we said “fine”
(laughter) ‘cus we didn’t want to do it. And … so we worked under those conditions until… well, just
call it 1933. We had a very good organization goin’.. and in the conditions that… uh, we were
working in, because they had a plenty of money to do anything we wanted to do. And that was a big
help when everybody needed money.
Q: What were the things that you had to buy… that you needed to get started?
A: Well, main thing was a flatbed truck, and…uh, we used our own automobiles to go to work and
come back in. We had one pick-up truck that we used, and that was it. We built the pile driver – a
wooden pile driver, and we bought a hoist from out of DC where they used as an elevator to carry
bricks and supplies up on the tall buildings. And that’s what we used as the… operated pile driver.
[Idlewilde] [7:38]
And in… ’35… we started building some walls and Idlewilde was the first one we built. And the
county… funded that wall with a… and people paid it back with their taxes. We are talking about a
wooden seawall built out of creosote lumber and galvanized hardware… with pilings driven in the
ground and wooden sheeting (?).
[North Beach Park] [8:37]
We drove better pilings on those county walls, and some walls we drived anchor piles and put a long
tie-rod – one through the front of the wall, back into the anchor system to stop it from falling over.
[Franklin Mannor] [8:54]
Nearly all the walls we built back in the ‘30s, and a little later on, have put in stones put in front of
them – to stop the planking from ____, ‘cus the hardware is gone, the bolts are gone, and it’s just
more than sittin’ up there and nothing stabilizing it. Put stone in front of it to stabilize it, and then
the… ah, sea can’t get through to the dirt, because the timbers are pretty firm. Cost a great deal less
to put stone on… up against the wall, than what it is to build a stone _____ alone.
[Cedarhurst] [9:48]
[Naval Research Center, Randle Cliff, MD] [10:35]
On the Naval Research job that we… wall that we built there, they had designed the wall to be five
foot outside the old steel wall that was standing (?) already there, but had rusted holes on it… and
was getting ready to fall down completely. After talking to them and bidding…ah, when I bid on it, I
had an inkling I could get them to change, but I couldn’t ___ unless I got the job. I told them I’d give
them (?) $10,000 if they let me move it all in shore five feet – I mean ten foot further – five foot on the
inside of the wall instead of outside the wall. The engineers also came back (laughter), with their final
estimate… and they told me that I had received a great deal more benefits than $10,000 (laughter) –
they wanted me to give them some more money back.
Q: What did you tell them?
�[Type text]
A: I told them I would donate some more money.
[Curtis Creek Coast Guard Station] [11:50]
One that the government runs and operates. That, we only put a portion of wall in, and ah… and
fender (?) systems, new fender (?) systems, and new dolphins in order to keep the native (?) ____ in
piles. But one of the first jobs that John (?) and _____ actually went in… from start to finish on.
[Snug Harbor] [12:53]
We placed that stone individually. We put a man out there…____ operator, to keep it smooth and
level. It takes a little less stone in the end, and ah… it’s less apt to get misplaced, you know, from
heavy seas.
Q: And why is that?
A: Well, some people don’t care how jagged it is, because they claim it knocks the sea down… busts
the sea up. I mean… that’s the two, two theories… putting her up real rough.
[Thomas Point Park] [13:39]
The state was going to put that stone up around Thomas Point. We explained to them what the
county was doing (?) – digging a ditch, I should have said, and putting the ____ down and coming up
to the top of the wall on the ground …
[Alexandria, VA] [14:05]
… and then putting some toe-wall (?) stone which was the heaviest stone we got and the biggest
stone we had we put down in that ditch, as anchor systems to stop the other wall from sliding. We
tried to get it as smooth as we could get it. It didn’t take no more stone, it only took more time.
[Ocean View, Norfolk, VA] [15:00]
We built about…. 37 jetties at Ocean View. The ____ … it was supposed to be 175-foot long, but
ah… we built one of them that wasn’t quite that long, and we built two longer ones. One of them, one
of the longest ones was 600-foot, were it washed (?) all the way back to the highway. We had three
very high pressure pumps that… to put the piling in ____ the ground with, because all of it was sand
except one pier and that had a hard pan (?) in it. And the way the water came up… must have been
iron ore.
Q: What does a jetty do?
A: Ah, they, ah… more or less equalize the sand up and down the beach…ah, because the beach to
scour (?) in one place and build up in another, these jetties equalize that. They fill up from one
direction nearly… the sand moves nearly all the time from one direction. Maybe certain times of the
year, when the prevailing winds are different, like maybe in January, February and March – we might
have more winds from the northeast or north, where in the summertime the prevailing winds are more
or less from the southwest, and most of the ______ . North winds are so much more severe than
what the south winds are the best _____ part time of the year, until (?) they’re the ones that do all
the damage.
[Uncle Billy’s Pier] [17:26]
The latest pier we had built up to that time was Uncle Billy’s Pier. And… it’s still standing there yet.
The late ‘30’s, let’s say… that will take care of it.
[North Beach] [17:52]
�[Type text]
That was a commercial pier more or less – even had a hotel on it and whatnot.
[Bladensburg, MD] [18:18]
A very complicated job, but a very thorough job. It was engineered very well and it is very stable. I
think we used the best of the wood that could be bought in it. We even sent down in the south and
bought up black gum, that nobody would think about using around this part of the country, for the
deck on it. It just will not rot, if you can hold it down… it will cock, it will turn up, twist and turn… but it
won’t rot. Now we put 60 nails… 60 penny nails through it, but we had to bore a lot of it. It was
somewhat dry and we had to put very large nails in it to stop it from twisting. While we were building
the wall, they were dredging the channel, and dredging the marina out, and by the time I got done
building the wall, and they had completed the dredging part of it before I got done with the wall. And I
got ____ to bring my little scow out to drive the piles and things – I didn’t have two-foot of water to
float my scow in, and they dredged it down to a seven-foot depth.
Q: What kind of time period are we talking about between….
A: Ah… maybe two months.
[Ocean City, MD] [20:18]
That was _____ there… the fishing pier. The piles were made around to 30-feet to 55-feet in length.
We planned on putting an ending down at least 12-feet, so after we got out in deep water… after
where we used the 55-foot pile… and put them butt first in the ground, not the little end in the ground.
When I started that pier, there was a very little bit of sand there. After the 1962 storm came along the
same year I started that pier… the north jetty had been built… ____ west of the harbor (?)… ____
and that caught all the sand as the storm … moved down the shore and held it there. Now they have
acres of sand there where they didn’t have… where at one time on a high tide, the water was running
right under the sidewalk… right up under the side of the boardwalk. I started when I got there, maybe
40 or 50 feet, when the storm hit… and then I had to turn the machine around and get myself back to
solid ground again… turn around again and go out again. I went a whole lot further than what we
planned on … due to…. he wanted to get out in 12-foot of water… that’s why we used those 50-foot
piles. And due to this storm bringing all the dirt from up… all the sand from up north…to the end of
the beach, and bringing it down and piling it up against that jetty. I had to go a lot further out… to get
to 12-foot of water.
[Annapolis City Dock] [22:47]
[Annapolis Yacht Club] [23:49]
[C & D Cannal (sic)] [24:15]
We built nine piers in the canal for people to fish off of… and two fire hydrants, one for each side of
the canal for the fireman to get their water out of. It was the same time that the Bethlehem Steel ship
hit the bridge…the highway bridge and put it out of commission… and made it so much easier for us
to work in… ‘cus no ship traffic could go through anymore… ‘til the bridge was fixed.
[Fort Washington Yacht Club] [25:28]
[Rod ‘N Reel, Chesapeake Beach, MD] [26:13]
We scribed (?) the boards to the pile so that… … so there was a very small crack, if any… so that the
ropes on the things that they moor their boats with, can’t get jammed in it.
Q: Well, how do you scribe it… that’s what I want you to say.
�[Type text]
A: There are so many different ways… you can take a pair of calipers and go around there and
scribe. You can take a rule and cut a circle around… and, stay a certain distance off from it… you
know…
Q. … I see… like with a compass…
A. …like a compass. The piles are not round… they are in one sense of the word, but not true round.
[Point Lookout State Park] [27:00]
[St. Mary’s College] [27:38]
[London Town Publik House] [27:54]
We also put the pier at London Town… we donated that as a gift to help people to get to it by boat.
[Smallwood State Park] [28:11]
[Crandall standing on bridge] Pretty view…
[Alexandria, VA] [29:38]
[Baltimore Yacht Club] [29:53]
[Back River Marina] [30:20]
[Baltimore, MD] [31:02]
We also built some bridges across the docks… were the ships used to come in, so they wouldn’t
have to go around the head of the dock… they could walk directly across from one dock to the other,
which was quite complicated. They were… had an awful lot of ___… they were arch bridges and
ah… a little complicated to build.
Q: How did you get, uh… those piles the right depth?
A: I guess we just drove the piles and sawed them off… at the right height [laughter] where ever the
piles stopped… when they got firm enough, then when we cut them down ___ them off… then they
were sawed off to get the arch, and they also had a lot of ____ that way, so they wouldn’t shake…
‘cus they got up pretty high in the center.
[USS Barry] [32:09]
We got the job of mooring a practically new destroyer…right in the Navy Yard. It had just come off
the railway and they put steel plates on the side of it… on… down near the corners of her bilge lines.
Put three up each side… three big plates. We drove six steel pile down, well below the mud (?)
line… and on top of those piles we had a… heavy chain that ah… was a inch or more in diameter…
the metal was… and carried it over and bolted it into the plates and welded it on.
[Merkle Wildlife Sanctuary] [33:17]
We built a bridge across ____ Bay… we had to build it strong enough to hold a crane on it. And ah…
it had two severe curves in it… reverse curves… I’ll just say a reverse curve, not two. It’s a reverse
curve, like that, and we had to saw the plank on the bevels so the decking would be more or less at
right angles to the curve, or … and that’s about all… very complicated, slow moving job.
�[Type text]
Q. Why was this complicated?
A. Well, the curve wasn’t true all the time. You had to keep changing your bevels on your boards.
And the second thing was, you could only build one pier at a time… one ____ pile, put the cap on it,
fix it, so you could walk the machine ahead on it. Done very much like I done that one down at
Ocean City. Well, they wouldn’t let you walk on the marsh… you’d disturb the marsh.
Q. OK… so you couldn’t disturb the marsh, so you had to build your own platform …
A. Yeah, for your equipment to work over. We could take three piles out, which was enough for one
bend (?)… we could take the truck out and bring the lumber out. And the crane would place it for us,
but we had to bolt it in place and put the tower up… the _____ tower. I built that home (?) in ____
deck. And I sent it to Baltimore and had it galvanized and then hauled it back to the job with a big
hydraulic crane to come in and set it up on top his tower.
[ head shot, Mr. Crandall] [35:40]
Things are getting more complicated, more costly. But, when I started out, everything … there was
such a bad depression, so it was hard to do. Yet, labor was so plentiful, but part of it was you didn’t
have the proper equipment. Took longer to do jobs… and a lot more men to do them.
Q. What does it take to keep a family business going for sixty years?
A. Well I’ve been very lucky. We never had no problems. It didn’t take nothing… it just fell into
place.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories - Voices of Shady Side
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Captain Avery Museum
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
1994008-Crandall-John